Gresley K3 vs Hughes Crab

[GWRSwindon]

While comparing the Thompson B1 and the Black Five is reasonable, and one can do the same to some extent with the B17 and the Jubilee ("three-cylinder 4-6-0" does apply to both), I feel I'm making a greater stretch with this current thread, as the similarities between these two classes seem to end at their wheel arrangement.

The K3 was a three-cylinder design intended for express goods, but they seem to have done a bit of everything, and were spread throughout the LNER's network. Other than a tendency toward rough riding, they were very successful machines.

The Crabs were also very reliable performers, doing all kinds of work across the LMS system, though they were concentrated in areas like the former L&Y network and Scotland.

[Hatfield Shed]

Better comparisons to the Crab would be the K2, GW 43xx, SR N.

The locos to compare to the K3 would be GW 47xx, SR S15, NER B16.

[Mickey]

Those nine in total ex GWR 47xx 2-8-0 Churchward locos of 1919 were very large and powerful looking locos mainly used on 'night time freight trains' although pressed into express passenger workings on summer Saturdays if required. Pity one wasn't preserved towards the end of B.R.(WR) steam?. Were they really comparable to a 2-6-0 K3?. I am only asking I don't actually know?.

[Hatfield Shed]

If you look at the four designs (K3, 47xx, S15, B16) they were all heavy mixed traffic types of almost exactly contemporary design, intended to offer their owning pre-group railways much the same capability for handling the growth in fast fitted freight. Similar grate area and nominal tractive effort on wheels about 5'8", and you get four different design schemes to compare as they were constructed to the various designer's railway standard:
Round top boiler, 3 cylinders, 2-6-0.
Round top boiler, 3 cylinders, 4-6-0.
Round top boiler, 2 cylinders, 4-6-0.
Belpaire boiler, 2 cylinders, 2-8-0.

[Mickey]

Considering the locos mentioned were all of a similar capability fair enough but 'looks wise' personally speaking the BIG LONG GWR 47xx 2-8-0 wins hands down over the diminutive LNER K3 2-6-0 anytime.

[rockinjohn]

Hi all, from memory the 47xx class always well turned out whether it be in BLK or GRN livery (polished brass) & in the 50's @ least as Mickey says turned out on Summer Saturday( rare for a daylight weekday sighting) west of england passenger turns &in 90% of the time,time was never lost,sometimes returning on Milk Trains,thru the week there seemed to be a couple of turns of fast fitted freights to &from Wolverhampton possibly up meat trains in the night or early hours,always two or three awaiting their turns @OOC(81A) they replaced Kings on the passenger turns, so no slouchs & that boiler steamed,I think a brave man to compare a B17 to a Jub.with or without the 225psi boiler, riding like dogs, just months out of works,but they were designed for a purpose, mainly the Civil Engineers wishes on the GE, but very early withdrawls soon commenced with good reason when the mid '50's came around,the Jubilees were a well liked loco by crews&fitting staff alike& quite happily accepted instead of a Scot or rebuilt Patriot if need arose,Think their star turn would have been on the Euston/Wolverhampton trains 2hr I think, with the crews from the Birmingham area sheds,dont think a B17 would have been welcomed or lasted long on those turns.

[Hatfield Shed]

Considering the locos mentioned were all of a similar capability fair enough but 'looks wise' personally speaking the BIG LONG GWR 47xx 2-8-0 wins hands down over the diminutive LNER K3 2-6-0 anytime.

You are not thinking like a shareholder! The extra 10 tons of metal of the 47xx loco for less operational capability then the K3 provided had to be paid for. (Churchward was questioned by the board on how expensive his locos were, even though the comparitively wealthy GWR could stand the expense.)
Forever significantly route restricted, and never upgraded from lever reverse, an interesting outlier of the Swindon standardisation is all programme.

[Mickey]

Interesting contribution as usual jj if you wasn't a railwayman you certainly talk like one.

Nothing to remarkable about the 'crabs' would I be correct in saying except the motion that gave them the nicknames 'crabs' plus they were lined out as mixed traffic locos. From memory they worked mainly around the north west on former L&Y and LNWR lines with the last two going in 1967.

[Mickey]

Considering the locos mentioned were all of a similar capability fair enough but 'looks wise' personally speaking the BIG LONG GWR 47xx 2-8-0 wins hands down over the diminutive LNER K3 2-6-0 anytime.

You are not thinking like a shareholder! The extra 10 tons of metal of the 47xx loco for less operational capability then the K3 provided had to be paid for. (Churchward was questioned by the board on how expensive his locos were, even though the comparitively wealthy GWR could stand the expense.)
Forever significantly route restricted, and never upgraded from lever reverse, an interesting outlier of the Swindon standardisation is all programme.

Good one Hatfield Shed that made me chuckle about NOT thinking like a shareholder and I must confess I like BIG TENDER LOCOMOTIVES and I have a liking for GWR & LMS locos as well.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey and all, dont think I ever witnessed a Crab going faster than 35mph,but then they were running into the London suburbs & nearly home,possibly the Stanier 2-6-0's not strictly "crabs" but sometimes called that, we're seen moving quite swiftly when on fast freight or reliefs,Kentish Town(14B) I think had a couple of the Hughes Crabs & did the beer trains up to Somers Town from Burton on Trent,there was a Beer Store under St.Pancras Station nice & cool!jj

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey and all, dont think I ever witnessed a Crab going faster than 35mph,but then they were running into the London suburbs & nearly home,possibly the Stanier 2-6-0's not strictly "crabs" but sometimes called that, we're seen moving quite swiftly when on fast freight or reliefs,Kentish Town(14B) I think had a couple of the Hughes Crabs & did the beer trains up to Somers Town from Burton on Trent,there was a Beer Store under St.Pancras Station nice & cool!jj

Interesting jj so 'crabs' use to work up the Midland main line into Somers Town goods yard at St Pancras I didn't realise they came as far south as London.

[John Palmer]

The Crabs worked a good deal further south than London - time was when they could regularly be seen at Bournemouth on workings over the Somerset & Dorset. A number of them were allocated to Bath during the 1939-45 war, during which time they probably took over duties previously handled by the Stanier Class 5s first allocated to the S&D in 1938. In 1948-49 five members of the class were again employed on S&D diagrams; a few photographs can be found showing them so engaged.

[rockinjohn]

Hi all,seem to remember a Crab(s) 1A or 1D being fitted with special equipment(ATS)? for working over the LTSR lines along with the powerful Fowler 0-8-0 496XX class, the locos that knocked out their Derby style axleboxes like the Garretts,so Tilbury&Southend.... East but a bit further south(ish)the knickname "crab" came from comments of the crews relating to the movement of riding in the Cab,now Mickey that "other"OOC(81A)turn for the 47xxclass shedded there, were to&from Birkenhead a v.long turn,also talking of "Crab" like movements & they really were &not witnessed on any other class of loco I ever saw, were the very powerful 0-6-0 15xx class some relegated to empty stock working @ Paddington, designed for Acton Yards foremost &(amongst others)with easy of maintance & keeping them off the Running shed(81A) for longer periods, but the turns were covered there by 350HP @ a very early stage '53/'54,they had a very strange movement sideways &up/down(over the points)I'm sure there's film footage somewhere out there. NCB knew a Bargain & bought some from BR,Glad other regions get to be mentioned pun intended(in a roundabout railway way)in this section, very intresting&welcomed.

[Mickey]

I like the LNER system of classifying locomotives by the wheel arrangement that was a good idea I thought?.

The GWR Churchward system of classifying GWR locomotives seems a bit 'cockeyed' but it works in a funny way.

Back around 1993-94 I had a 00 gauge Lima Hughes 'Crab' in overall black lined out in mixed traffic livery but I haven't got it now.

Those BIG GARRETTS were a expensive waste of time often running hot and with main frame cracking and having to be taken out of traffic for repair.

[Hatfield Shed]

...Those BIG GARRETTS were a expensive waste of time often running hot and with main frame cracking and having to be taken out of traffic for repair.

It is a fair critique of Stanier's regime, that once the fundamental problems of the LMS traction department had been solved, that the relatively new Garratts were not upgraded as they came in for main works overhaul. Beyer Peacock had supplied a competent boiler design, and with the Midland's inadequate standard engines, frames and bearings scrapped in favour of a design to the new standard arrangements, a very competent machine should have resulted.

Design resource was available: the Fowler 4P 2-6-4T was the one acknowledged star of the LMS' first 10 years, and didn't need an equivalent replacement; and the LMS would have saved the Garratt's reconstruction cost quickly enough by the ongoing improved availability and reduced repair bill from a much more reliable machine.