Was the B1 one of the best UK steam locos?

[Mickey]

On a dvd of steam around the west riding of Yorkshire during the 1960s it features several scenes of a Bradford to Leeds portion of a Leeds to Kings Cross Brush type 4 hauled service that was steam hauled between Bradford and Leeds City station by I believe the last B1 working during 1967 hauling blue/grey B.R.Mk1s.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Burnie yes the Annesley "runners"/"flyers" not even in the way of of many passenger trains @that point on the GC, lots of 9F's forgot them,crews one min.late off shed staring signal, turn cancelled was "Hardy"involved knew he was @ Woodford Halse & practised the same discipline.jj

[burnie]

Have you seen this site, most interesting written by an old GC fireman
http://www.annesleyfireman.com/

[STAFFORDA4]

I have an old mate from Manchester who hated the B1s when they first arrived on the scene. They pushed his beloved local GC stuff to the scrapyard. Although I think he was mighty chuffed the first time 61264 ran at Loughborough

[GWRSwindon]

I'd love to find out just what it was that caused the B1s to be more successful on ex-LNER routes. In any case, the fourteen Bongoes that spent some time on the Southern Region seemed to do quite well.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Yes Stewarts Lane (73A)liked and did well with them, some of the early arrivals sent back for exchange not being in the best of health,locos coming from far and wide on the LNER system,Nine Elms (70A)had some V2's & put in some very good work out of Waterloo to the West Country.

[neilgow]

Way back in the early 1980's, I met the Inverness Traction Inspector and a Keith driver. One LNER one LMS. Their conversation was interesting and illuminating.

Both men accepted that compared to a Stanier Black 5, the B1 being a wartime build was a bit on the flimsy side and when well used could rattle and clank with the best of them. This I learnt kept the fire lively but as the LMS man stated, if you got a Kyle of Lochalsh Black 5 awaiting overhaul, it would be put on the Inverness overnight sleepers as the speed never got above 40mph and the axle boxes were shot so the crew rode on the tender, 'twas easier on the legs but kept a good fire. The Inspector was of the opinion and in his experience, that the B1 was the better steamer. This he felt was down to the fact that Thompson used the boiler from the B17's, a boiler built to supply steam to three cylinders, driven properly, no B1 should run out of steam. When you look at the B1 specifications quite alot of its components came as proven from other designs. From the depths of my memory I seem to remember the driving wheels came from the V2, the cylinders of the K2 and the bogie from the D49. Where I read this info I'm not too sure.

When it came down to the pair of them talking of the merits or not of various valve gears etc, I went and put the kettle on.

When all is said and done, I much preferred the B16 and maybe a K3.

Keep safe y'all.

NG.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Neil a K3 on loaded/or empty fish,along with a B1 on an up Grimsby /Cleethorpes in the Northern Suburbs of London in full flight a sight to behold.

[neilgow]

We can dream a little of days past.

A friend of mind was a Grimsby fireman who was overjoyed when the Brittanias started on the fish trains. Easy to fire and oh so comfortable.

NG.

[S.A.C. Martin]

"Was the B1 one of the best UK Steam Locos?"

Simple answer, yes.

Long answer:

- Standard parts organised into a workable design, thus reducing design and prototyping requirements during WW2
- 410 locomotives in effect replaced the best part of 1000 pre-grouping locomotives on a range of duties throughout the LNER and later BR
- B1 locomotives carried out their duties with high availability throughout the classes' existence
- outside of the BR standards, the largest truly "standard" class with no real meaningful variations amongst its 410 members
- B1 components used on other classes to upgrade (O1, O4/8, K1, etc) enabling greater standardisation of parts

I'd argue it's an incredibly important locomotive for post WW2 steam. But then I would, wouldn't I?

[Midland Excursion]

Hello all - not often I feel I can comment on LNER matters, but I will on this one.

I'm sure that the B1 was a decent locomotive considering the difficulties of wartime - and as others have pointed out, used a lot of standard parts.

My comment is based on one source, an Aylesbury fireman who came to our school Railway Society one day to give a talk. It was probably 1965.

I can hardly remember anything he said, but one thing stuck. He said that he'd fired Black 5s and B1s on the GC, and that up to about 8 coaches there was no difference in performance. But, with heavier loads the Black 5 definitely had the edge in terms of power.

This does not make the Black 5 a better locomotive per se, of course - because you need to state your basis for evaluation. What about capital costs, running costs, maintenance costs and the like.

I'm just reporting what he said. In truth, I think he was actually an LNWR man, in the sense that he originally worked on the Aylesbury to .... what was the station on the Euston line? Anyway, he told a story or two about that before it closed, and then he went to the GC, so I suppose around 1960. But I definitely didn't detect any bias from that background. He seemed to be telling it as he experienced it.

Best regards.

[Hatfield Shed]

...My comment is based on one source, an Aylesbury fireman who came to our school Railway Society one day to give a talk. It was probably 1965...

No one else has picked this up, so I will.

All the operator has is experience, no data. As an operational manager, it's the numbers that enable objective assessment of equipment performance. Acquisition cost, energy and supplies consumption per unit work done, availabilty and maintenance cost, product or service delivery conformance. The people using the equipment will have their preferences, but the lowest net cost equipment that demonstrates the capability to deliver the required performance is the best from the business standpoint.

This is where the operator experience is of value. If the data shows that the performance required is achievable by some operators, then it is potentially available from all. Identify the operational factors that make it work, and train all the operators in the optimum method, with inspection to ensure conformance. Do I need to mention L.P. Parker? There's a man who knew how it was done. This is rarely popular, but this isn't a beauty contest.

[harry lamb]

Data. Facts and statistics collected together for reference or analysis. Also, things known or assumed facts making the basis of reasoning or calculation. The source of knowledge IS experience. Data derives from that source. If the operators of the said machinery did not possess sufficient data to work these machines then the job would not have worked.

[S.A.C. Martin]

...My comment is based on one source, an Aylesbury fireman who came to our school Railway Society one day to give a talk. It was probably 1965...

No one else has picked this up, so I will.

All the operator has is experience, no data. As an operational manager, it's the numbers that enable objective assessment of equipment performance. Acquisition cost, energy and supplies consumption per unit work done, availability and maintenance cost, product or service delivery conformance. The people using the equipment will have their preferences, but the lowest net cost equipment that demonstrates the capability to deliver the required performance is the best from the business standpoint.

This is where the operator experience is of value. If the data shows that the performance required is achievable by some operators, then it is potentially available from all. Identify the operational factors that make it work, and train all the operators in the optimum method, with inspection to ensure conformance. Do I need to mention L.P. Parker? There's a man who knew how it was done. This is rarely popular, but this isn't a beauty contest.

I agree with all of that. Data is key to understanding what actually happened, better.

If the data exists to show a particular viewpoint is wrong - e.g. the Thompson Pacifics were awful - then we should defer to the data, no?

[Mickey]

Was the B1 one of the best UK steam locos?. I doubt it.

I want my Stanier black 5 an engineman's engine.