What loco?

[redtoon1892]

Re the crane tank, dosent look like a camera more like he is carrying something on his shoulder.

[52D]

How about this for an explanation, Hawthorn Leslie had a works crane tank of similar design to the Indian crane tank and a picture of the Indian crane tank on test has inadvertently been used by the Hebburn website.
Comparing pictures i note the Indian CT has a hole in the side tank presumably to access motion for lubrication and the one on the Hebburn picture does not appear to have this feature. I like these detective storys.

[Malcolm]

Or maybe 'Titan' was a demonstration or prototype model?
As for the holes in the side of the tank, these could maybe be a later addition after lubrication problems?

I also note a slight difference in the cab roof between models.

Malcolm

[Bryan]

52A posted this

A very old and very battered photo, the loco appears to be down a hole, but where and why?


Attachments:
File comment: What and where?

Scan-090101-0001.jpg [ 342.97 KiB | Viewed 138 times ]

Did we get any definitive location for this earlier post?

[52A]

Alas not, Forth/Elswick and New Bridge Street have been suggested but no definite identification.

[52D]

Theorys we have aplenty but no definite conclusions. Ive fired an email to the chap who does a lot of writing about wartime activitys in the NE to see if he has any record of it being due to bombing or shelling.

[buckjumper]

Can anyone help me to identify this loco?
(I seem to have a thing with locos and water)

Malcolm

Blowing the photo up it looks like it's still carrying the old GER lettering to me possibly No. (hook) 256 . That fits in with it being an unfitted loco with 3-link couplings as the ten built to Stratford Order H45 in 1899 were R24 shunters, becoming a J67/1 under the LNER.

Could it be the floods of 1903? Much of the railway in the area was flooded like this - the Hertford branch was also photographed in a flooded state at this time, though if it is that date I'm impressed with the clarity of the image.

[52A]

What...and where?

[Bryan]

What - I have no idea
Where - Newcastle?

[Trestrol]

A J21 an Newcastle west end thats Forth goods depot in the background.

[Malcolm]

Yes, it's Newcastle Central West end, but it's not a J21.........I believe it is a J72, and knowing 52A I would take a guess that is J72 69026 (as he took the photo). You can just see the filler cap for the water tank at the bottom of the picture.

Malcolm

[Malcolm]

Regarding 52A's post on January 1st:

A very old and very battered photo, the loco appears to be down a hole, but where and why?

This one has been bugging me since then. I have spent a lot time going through accident records, local history records for the North East (I concur it is a Gateshead crane), and many archives till I am cross-eyed.

I have a theory and I'd like to float it with everyone. Here goes:

1. It has to be bomb damage, shell damage, structural collapse, or an explosion to create such a big hole.
2. Structural collapse would not have caused such extensive damage so I went for the others.
3. No record of an industrial explosion fits the bill, so we're back to bomb or shell.
4. I think the style of clothes could fit anywhere between 1900 and 1950s regardless of what anyone thinks.
5. The supposed date on the crane and the maker would seem to rule out pre-grouping (I don't think the plate is 1907).
6. This means WW2 damage.
7. The architecture of the building does not fit with anything I can find in the Elswick, Scotswood areas of Newcastle, nor does it match any of the buildings around Trafalgar yard or Newbridge street (I have a few photos of the area around that time).
8. A list of railway accidents does not yeald any clues, but someone's suggestion of Sunderland pointed me that way.
9. I found a site with extensive photo coverage and stories of air raids on Sunderland and unearthed a photo of bomb damage to the Electricity Works in Farrington Row on November 7th 1941. The building design appears (note I say appears) to match the photo from 52A). I have attached photos below.

However, there are two flies in the ointment, namely, I don't know if there were any railway tracks into the works, and, if there were, what was the loco doing there (scant details...at least from here in Japan).

Any ideas anyone?

Malcolm

[52A]

Location is Newcastle West End Dock with the Forth Goods in the background, 67646 coming off the Carlisle lines towards platform 13. The loco is as Malcolm says a J72 but it is a little green beast, 68736. Strangely the loco is the wrong way round as it was usual for both west end station pilots to be head into the station.

[52A]

With regard to my mystery disaster photo, try this.

http://www.durham.gov.uk/RecordOffice/usp.nsf

Click on maps to enter GIS, find Sunderland. The area is to the west of the main railway bridge on the south side of the river. If you zoom in and pan you will find Farrington Row. You can now step back through time (TARDIS not required). In 1960 the building next door appears to be a bus depot, further back a Tramway depot. Around 1920 the building itself does show as a generating station with railways nearby, the railway to Lambton drops is in a tunnel at the north end of the site. In 1895 the site appears to be rail connected. Farrington Row is still there but the railways have all gone, what is there now I know not. It would need a site visit, but this being Makem land takes a stout heart and a modicum of insanity.

[Bill Bedford]

Regarding 52A's post on January 1st:

A very old and very battered photo, the loco appears to be down a hole, but where and why?

This one has been bugging me since then. I have spent a lot time going through accident records, local history records for the North East (I concur it is a Gateshead crane), and many archives till I am cross-eyed.
I have a theory and I'd like to float it with everyone. Here goes:

Sorry I have to disagree with this

1. It has to be bomb damage, shell damage, structural collapse, or an explosion to create such a big hole.
2. Structural collapse would not have caused such extensive damage so I went for the others.

OK but:
The rail to the right of the loco (crane track?) is undamaged. The damage to the loco is consistent with it nosediving into a pit and the tender taking the cab roof off. The windows in the building on the right are intact which tends to preclude an explosion.
So I think we are looking at a structure collapse.

4. I think the style of clothes could fit anywhere between 1900 and 1950s regardless of what anyone thinks.

The high starched white shirt collar on the bystander just in front of the camera suggests pre WW1

5. The supposed date on the crane and the maker would seem to rule out pre-grouping (I don't think the plate is 1907).

The crane is a 25T built by Cravens in 1907. It has NER lining and a depot name beginning with "G", presumably Gateshead. I don't have a NER allocation but the LNER allocations for these cranes was

No 12: 1926, Darlington, 1937, Darlington, 1947, Sunderland
No 13: 1926, Middlesborough, 1937, Middlesborough, 1947, Middlesborough
No 14: 1926, Dairycoats, 1937, Dairycoats, 1947, Dairycoats

The Gateshead cranes are listed as No 1 35T built by Cowans in 1916 and No 22 45T built by Cowans in 1926. This suggests that one of the 1907 25T cranes was replace at Gateshead by No 1 in 1916, which was in turn replace by the No 22 in 1926. No 1 went to York.

6. This means WW2 damage.

I suggest the photo is pre 1916