Welwyn Garden City s/box 1972/73.

[ajax103]

Some interesting photos there, I'm aware more or less where Hertford North signalbox was - just beside the entrance to the Up Carriage Sidings?

But with today's layout, where was the Welwyn GC signalbox if it was there today?

If WGC box was still there today it was located at the north end of the Down platforms between the Down slow line on the east side of the box and on the west side of the box the old Luton branch line which today is the line that leads to & from the Down side EMU sidings. Today the brick wall of the Howard shopping centre backs up against the railway running along the entire length of platform no.4 (formerly platform no.1 the Luton line platform).

I have a suspicion that WGC, Hertford North & Langley Junction (south of Stevenage new station) were all built by a local contractor as all three boxes looked similar to each other?.

That brings me to my next question, you say the old Luton line now leads to/from the Down EMU Sidings but from what I understand, the site was a raised field which they had to lowered before they could build the yard there so whereabouts between the platforms and the yard did the line verve off to Luton?

[Mickey]

That brings me to my next question, you say the old Luton line now leads to/from the Down EMU Sidings but from what I understand, the site was a raised field which they had to lowered before they could build the yard there so whereabouts between the platforms and the yard did the line verve off to Luton?

Yes you are correct where the current Down EMU sidings are located that land prior to the sidings being constructed during 1973 was a raised open field although towards the south end of the open field there was a small lightly wooded area where the old Luton single line curved away towards Ayot. From the boundary fence that ran along side the Down goods line north of WGC towards Digswell and which bordered the raised open field the field it's self stretched back quite away from the railway across an open area of land to the back gardens of a a row of distant residential houses along the Digswell road I recall. That raised open field was 'dug out' and lowered level to the main line over the course of a couple of months during 1973 after which the construction of the EMU sidings commenced during the summer & autumn of that year and may have continued into 1974 before being finally completed.

With regards to the old Luton single line after it departed the Luton line platform at WGC station (the former platform no.1 and nowadays platform no.4) it passed the box and then under the Hunters road bridge and then it swung left on a rising gradient around a curve and continued towards the woods passing under the 'White bridge' and continuing on a rising gradient through a wooded section of the line towards Ayot.

A Kings Cross driver once lived in a old house that was built close to the Luton line on the left-hand curve after passing under the Hunters road bridge during the 1960s and into the early 1970s but that old house may have been demolished during the building of the Down EMU sidings but I am not sure of that?. I forget the Kings Cross driver's name who lived in the old house but his name was mentioned on the forum about 10 years ago.

Below- A DMU departing Welwyn Garden City station in 1965 for Luton and possibly on the last day of the passenger service?. The Luton line passed under the Hunters road bridge beyond the box and then swung around a left-hand curve on a rising gradient through the woods towards the 'White bridge' and Ayot.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/w/we ... _old10.jpg

[Mickey]

Welwyn Garden City station looking south from the Up slow line platform during 1973 while a blue class 47 speeds passed along the Down fast line on a Kings Cross to Leeds express also note the 'hooded' new multi-aspect colour light signals already in position. The two semaphore signals are no.47 that reads along the Up slow line and no.39 that reads Up slow to Up fast line.

The 'Welwyn flyover' at this stage was under construction and can just be seen in the far distance as well as the tall Twentieth Mile overbridge with a light grey coloured concrete upright retaining wall standing between the Up slow line & Up fast line that can just be made out. I was in WGC box when this picture was taken and I estimate the date to be around July/August of 1973. Construction Work on the 'Welwyn flyover' took place daily between 10:00am-4:00pm Monday to Friday from about May of 1973 onwards and was completed by the very end of 1973 when fresh ballast was dropped in readiness for laying the new track over the flyover at the start of 1974. The usual thing was the 'bloke in charge' of the construction of the flyover would ring up the box before 10:00am and 'take possession' of the Up slow line between Welwyn Garden City & Hatfield No.2 boxes and once the possession was taken all southbound trains heading Up line towards Kings Cross would be routed along the Up fast line even the local passenger trains that started from WGC which would then be 'turned in' off the Up fast line and back along the Up slow line at Hatfield No.2 box.

In actual fact with the below picture on 'zoom in' I can just make out a red flag in the 4ft in both the Up slow & Up goods line so obviously those lines were BLOCKED during the daily possession for the construction work on the flyover.

https://www.ourwelwyngardencity.org.uk/ ... -end-1.jpg

[Mickey]

The WGC NX panel photographed sometime between the second half of 1974 and September 1976 when the box finally closed. I don't recognize who the signalman is he must have shown up after I left the box in March 1974. I do recall a middle aged woman possibly in her 40s coming to the box one morning with a local manager early in 1974 to measure up the box windows for those curtains featured in the photograph and by looking at the panel it appears that the box was at the time the photograph was taken working the 'Hatfield area' of the panel as well after Hatfield No.2 closed around April 1974 so WGC would then be working with New Barnet box to the south. When I left the box in March 1974 the Hatfield end of the panel was still being worked by Hatfield No.2 box for a few more weeks and that end of the WGC panel was partly covered over for that reason.

The white lights on the panel were 'route lights' and the red lights were 'track circuits' also note the x4 buttons in a row towards the bottom of the panel those were the x4 buttons for the individual block bells which were 2 buttons for Langley Junction on the fast & slow lines to the left and 2 buttons for New Barnet on the fast & slow lines to the right. Beyond the end of the panel can be seen the white painted wall of the partition that cut the box in half the idea being it would keep the signalman warmer rather than having to heat the whole empty part of the box as well but in hot weather it could have a reverse effect whereby the signalman felt 'boxed in' in a stuffy little area to work in.

https://www.ourwelwyngardencity.org.uk/ ... anel-1.jpg

[ajax103]

Some interesting pictures there of days gone by, I remember when I worked a few shifts there years ago that on Platform 3/4 the buildings used have a layout of waiting room by the stairs then gents then the platform office then driver messroom then at the end a disused room filled of rubbish as a storeroom filled of unused station stuff with a sink I think.

In the drivers messroom in one corner though, there was a noticeboard dating back to BR which had photos of various staff on it that was binned I think when the manager at the time did a clear up and refurbished the buildings. You probably know the one I'm talking about?

[Mickey]

When I first went to WGC box as a 15 year old 'box lad' straight from secondary school in July 1972 the station manager at that time was a bloke called Jack Mead who had a deputy manager under him called Mr.Hamer who was usually seen walking purposely around the station holding a piece of paper in his hand that's when one of the signalmen told me that carrying a piece a paper around made it look like he was busy and doing something!. Ha ha ha... Jack Mead I believe migrated northwards to become the station manager at Hitchin during the mid-1970s but I don't know whatever became of him I presume he probably retired in either the 1980s or 1990s I would have thought?.

A few of the staff at the station during the 1972-74 era?. There was a couple of chargemen at the station in my time with one bloke called Ivor who transferred to Moorgate station around 1975-76 when the Eastern region of B.R. took over the former London Underground Northern line branch from Moorgate to Drayton Park and onto Finsbury Park and the other chargeman's name was Charlie Heritage (I can still see there faces in my minds eye) plus there was 4 or 5 railmen at the station with one bloke called Dave a tall'ish bloke who sometimes did a bit of shunting in the Up yard and another railman a Irish bloke called Dennis plus a couple of booking office clerks. Unfortunately I can't remember any of the other two or three railmen's names at the station when I was there nearly 50 years ago?.

In WGC Up yard there was 2 shunter's one was called Fred a west Indian bloke who lived at Finsbury Park and the other bloke was called Sid an old bloke who lived at Letty Green along the Hatfield-Hertford road and who use to ride an old push bike to and from his home and WGC station daily between Monday & Friday.

[StevieG]

I have a feeling that the panel signalman in the photo might be Rlf. Sig. Bob Milburn Mickey. Did you ever meet him and so can make any comment on whether that's correct ?

[Mickey]

I have a feeling that the panel signalman in the photo might be Rlf. Sig. Bob Milburn Mickey. Did you ever meet him and so can make any comment on whether that's correct ?

I never met him Stevie but the name does have a slight ring to it?. The surname Milburn sounds like a name originating from the north east of England?.

The only signalmen who worked the box during the time that I was at the box between July 1972-March 1974 other than the three resident signalmen Cecil White, Alan Palmer & Harry Fitzgerald was the relief signalmen in the shape of Dave Tilbury who occasionally worked the box when it still had a lever frame but Dave didn't work the box to often though and I don't think Dave ever learnt the NX panel when I was still at the box. Norman Greenwood again occasionally worked the box when it still had a lever frame but not to often and like Dave Tilbury I don't recall Norman learning the NX panel while I was still at the box. A Geordie bloke who went by the name of Bill Taylor worked the box occasionally when it still had a lever frame and yet again I don't recall Bill learning the NX panel while I was still at the box (I am sure there was a Bill Taylor working as a manager around Stratford in the 1990s but I don't know if it was the same bloke?). Roy Revell learnt the NX panel and passed it out maybe at the start of 1974 but I don't recall Roy ever working the box when it was still a lever frame?. Finally a bloke called Barry Jones a Yorkshire man who was about 30-35 years old in 1973 who came on the forum about 3 years ago and claimed he had been a signalman at Cemetery box for about 10 years prior to learning Welwyn Garden City anyway he learnt the box when it still had a lever frame and worked the box about a dozen times during 1973 before the NX panel was commissioned in September of that year but he never learnt the NX panel not while I was at the box.

Bill Taylor the Geordie relief signalman I believe he sometimes worked Arlesey box between Hitchin & Biggleswade because I believe he implied that he did and another thing about Bill who was a bloke of around 5'-7'' or 5'-8'' tall he usually smoked cigars in the box.

I remember one day a young bloke about 30 years old showed up at Welwyn Garden City box when it still had a lever frame maybe during the summer of 1973 and apparently he was a 'London relief signalman' and he came up the box and was talking with the signalman Harry Fitzgerald and something was said about Harringay Up Goods box in that possibly that he had worked Harringay Up Goods the day before I can't really remember anyway apparently he had been told to go 'up country' and learn Woolmer Green box for some reason which at that moment in time only had a few months left before it finally closed?. Anyway after he had left the box Harry turned to me and said 'Typical out of work London reliefman coming down from London and looking for working the overtime' ha ha ha...

[StevieG]

The actual Bob Milburn (whether or not it's him in the photo), was indded a 'Geordie' Mickey.
The Bill Taylor that you knew, and the one who was later a Movements Manager at Stratford, was the same person Mickey.
I wonder if the 'London Reliefman' was Jim Churcher. He certainly worked 'Harringay Goods', and I had a few visits there when he was on.

[Mickey]

The actual Bob Milburn (whether or not it's him in the photo), was indded a 'Geordie' Mickey.
The Bill Taylor that you knew, and the one who was later a Movements Manager at Stratford, was the same person Mickey.
I wonder if the 'London Reliefman' was Jim Churcher. He certainly worked 'Harringay Goods', and I had a few visits there when he was on.

When the former Anglia region (previously the Eastern region) took over the North London line from the London Midland region around 1996-97 that was when Bill Taylor's name came up with Bill being a manager at Stratford at that time anyway I was hoping to possibly meet him just to see if it was the same bloke who was a relief signalman who worked Welwyn Garden City box occasionally back around 1972-73 when I was at the box and see if he remembered me from that time but shortly after the NLL went over to the Anglia region I heard Bill had gone I presume retired?.

With regards to the London relief signalman turning up at Welwyn Garden City one day to go and learn Woolmer Green box (which only had 2 or 3 months to go before closure at that time) no it wasn't Jim Stevie.

[StevieG]

Bill was one of the two Liverpool Street MMs (on overlapping shifts) in (new) Hamilton House when I moved there in '89, but later the office was moved to Stratford. Don't know when he finished but he was still usually seen at the twice-yearly KX Area Reunions at Hatfield: Must be in his '80s now.

[Mickey]

Bill was one of the two Liverpool Street MMs (on overlapping shifts) in (new) Hamilton House when I moved there in '89, but later the office was moved to Stratford. Don't know when he finished but he was still usually seen at the twice-yearly KX Area Reunions at Hatfield: Must be in his '80s now.

Bill Taylor possibly in his 80s!. Yeah he would be although in my minds eye I can still picture him as he was about 48 years ago probably in his early 30s at that time?. I didn't know him that much he only showed up maybe around a dozen times over a 18 months period if that when I was at the box plus I didn't talk much back then especially to a 'old person' like Bill in his 30s!. Ha ha ha... well I was only 15-16 years old at the time. As I said previously Bill was a Geordie about 5'-7'' or 5'-8'' and he smoked cigars which implied he was earning the money being a relief signalman but he was alright with me there was no issues with him.

[ajax103]

When I first went to WGC box as a 15 year old 'box lad' straight from secondary school in July 1972 the station manager at that time was a bloke called Jack Mead who had a deputy manager under him called Mr.Hamer who was usually seen walking purposely around the station holding a piece of paper in his hand that's when one of the signalmen told me that carrying a piece a paper around made it look like he was busy and doing something!. Ha ha ha... Jack Mead I believe migrated northwards to become the station manager at Hitchin during the mid-1970s but I don't know whatever became of him I presume he probably retired in either the 1980s or 1990s I would have thought?.

A few of the staff at the station during the 1972-74 era?. There was a couple of chargemen at the station in my time with one bloke called Ivor who transferred to Moorgate station around 1975-76 when the Eastern region of B.R. took over the former London Underground Northern line branch from Moorgate to Drayton Park and onto Finsbury Park and the other chargeman's name was Charlie Heritage (I can still see there faces in my minds eye) plus there was 4 or 5 railmen at the station with one bloke called Dave a tall'ish bloke who sometimes did a bit of shunting in the Up yard and another railman a Irish bloke called Dennis plus a couple of booking office clerks. Unfortunately I can't remember any of the other two or three railmen's names at the station when I was there nearly 50 years ago?.

In WGC Up yard there was 2 shunter's one was called Fred a west Indian bloke who lived at Finsbury Park and the other bloke was called Sid an old bloke who lived at Letty Green along the Hatfield-Hertford road and who use to ride an old push bike to and from his home and WGC station daily between Monday & Friday.

I think the Dennis you refer to is still there, I remember well over a decade ago learning the Down CS as a trainee shunter under a guy called Terry who had I believe love and hate or similar tattoed on his knuckles.

No idea if he's still there tho.

[Mickey]

This was posted before 10 years ago on one of the Welwyn Garden City box threads but I recall the day in 1972 when the S&T wanted to clarify if putting back no.23 lever the Down fast line inner home signal south of the station as soon as the loco passed the signal and before it occupied the long track circuit through the Down fast line at WGC station if it would return the x2 aspect colour light to danger outside the box?.

The train chosen for the experiment by chance by the signalman & S&T blokes was the 12:00 midday out of Kings Cross Scottish express Deltic hauled with 13 coaches on behind the loco and doing 90mph on the rising 1-200 gradient down from Hatfield.

The stage was set...

4 bells 'be ready' was received and accepted from Hatfield No.2 and forwarded to Welwyn North where it was also accepted and the Down fast line signals were pulled off!. Several minutes later 2 bells 'on line' was received from Hatfield No.2 and a couple of minutes later the birth track circuit 200 yards on the approach to the Down fast line outer home signal no.22 at the 20th Mile bridge showed occupied then shortly after the express was fast approaching no.23 the Down fast line inner home signal!. The signalman was standing at the Down fast line signal levers and threw back no.21 the Down fast line colour light distant signal then no.22 the Down fast line outer home signal and as soon as the express passed no.23 the Down fast line inner home signal he threw the lever back in the frame and (of course) the colour light in the Down fast line outside the box returned to danger!!.

What happened next?.

A Deltic with 13 coaches on behind the loco and doing 90mph at the south end of WGC station (the driver) made a full emergency brake application!!. The Deltic was brought to a dead stand just underneath the Hunters road overbridge with the rest of the train lined back through WGC station.

The S&T blokes then said "Yes that still works then." and the signalman said "The trouble with pulling them up short like that locks the brakes on" (not to mention the wheel flats!).

In the meantime the fireman (secondman) could be seen climbing down from the loco and starting to run back towards the box on the ballast.

The signalman then leans out of the box window and gives the fireman the 'right away' with his arm held up and at the same time shouting "right away mate!."

Shortly after the fireman clambers back on board the loco and a huge plume of Deltic exhaust heads skywards as the Deltic slowly gets the 13 coach express underway again from a standing start!!.

Doing something like that these days would cause merry hell but nearly 50 years ago you could possibly get away with it plus it was something to remember.

[StevieG]

What a dreadful choice of train to do that with Mickey. I feel sure that plenty of the men wouldn't have picked the 12:00 express and I'm surprised the signalman agreed to that. The S&T might've been a bit lazy asking to do it with a train instead of artificially dropping the TC to simulate a train when there was no actual traffic.
But the driver did well to stop so suddenly in such a short distance.