West End Workbench
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Re: West End Workbench
Personally I would doubt that that would not have been mentioned in the LNER Green books, since Maurice Boddy was and
indeed still is very punctilious with his work, and having the access to Doncaster Works when researching the books for the
RCTS, and being able to talk at the highest level would certainly have been told about this at the time in the early 50's.
It is not mentioned anywhere else that there was any wheelbase difference with the J6's, personally I wonder whether it
might have been more to do with the coupling between the tender and the loco. You also do not mention what kind of
tender was on the loco. Mind you did the foreman have much experience with turning J6's??
Jonathan, I assume you are still modelling 00, but if not, please let me know.
Paul.
Ps you know you need at least one Colwick engine for Grantham
indeed still is very punctilious with his work, and having the access to Doncaster Works when researching the books for the
RCTS, and being able to talk at the highest level would certainly have been told about this at the time in the early 50's.
It is not mentioned anywhere else that there was any wheelbase difference with the J6's, personally I wonder whether it
might have been more to do with the coupling between the tender and the loco. You also do not mention what kind of
tender was on the loco. Mind you did the foreman have much experience with turning J6's??
Jonathan, I assume you are still modelling 00, but if not, please let me know.
Paul.
Ps you know you need at least one Colwick engine for Grantham
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Re: West End Workbench
I have just checked, the last turntable from HItchin is actually with the GCR and was a 60 ft one, it is therefore without
doubt unlikely any J6 would have been too long for that, even with a wagon!!!
Originally, Hitchin got a 40 ft table in 1851, this was later replaced by 45 footer in 1871,
whilst the Ransome and Rapier 60ft was installed in 1905 and there are pictures from 1923
of a large Atlantic on the table something considerably longer than a J6.
All this from Griffiths and Hooper GNR Engine sheds Vol 1.
Paul
doubt unlikely any J6 would have been too long for that, even with a wagon!!!
Originally, Hitchin got a 40 ft table in 1851, this was later replaced by 45 footer in 1871,
whilst the Ransome and Rapier 60ft was installed in 1905 and there are pictures from 1923
of a large Atlantic on the table something considerably longer than a J6.
All this from Griffiths and Hooper GNR Engine sheds Vol 1.
Paul
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Re: West End Workbench
Still firmly 2mm under gauge here, Paul.
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Re: West End Workbench
Jonathan, no worries, just wanted to be sure
Having talked with Maurice Boddy again, it seems that there were some possible problems with weight
distribution on the early Ivatt class of what became the J6, and that is why Gresley moved the boiler
back, and extended the main frames at the rear, but certainly no written evidence of wheelbase change.
There are two frame drawings at York, but not for early sight sadly.
Not sure if this is the right place, but does anyone know of any drawings, or castings for underfloor FLOOD Injectors,
specifically for LNER, but any data would be useful please, indeed any data of out of the cab injectors would be useful.
Paul
Having talked with Maurice Boddy again, it seems that there were some possible problems with weight
distribution on the early Ivatt class of what became the J6, and that is why Gresley moved the boiler
back, and extended the main frames at the rear, but certainly no written evidence of wheelbase change.
There are two frame drawings at York, but not for early sight sadly.
Not sure if this is the right place, but does anyone know of any drawings, or castings for underfloor FLOOD Injectors,
specifically for LNER, but any data would be useful please, indeed any data of out of the cab injectors would be useful.
Paul
- manna
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Re: West End Workbench
G'Day Gents
Well obviously it wasn't Hitchin, not with a T/T that big, and I can't remember where I read it, on the net or in a book ( I've tried) so it could have been a bit of BS.
manna
Well obviously it wasn't Hitchin, not with a T/T that big, and I can't remember where I read it, on the net or in a book ( I've tried) so it could have been a bit of BS.
manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
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Re: West End Workbench
I managed some time at the bench this weekend and went back to the J6. I've deliberately left it until i had a prolonged period at it. Over the weekend I put together the gearbox/motor, built the tender and added more bits to the body, which is now in one piece.
The drive unit is intended to be a Mitsumi driving the rear axle through a High Level Road Runner Plus (which I happened to have) - the gearbox is on its front parallel to the rails and the motor vertical in the firebox in this configuration. I shan't do much more to the body now until I've put all that together and tested it. One thing which has become apparent today is that clearances in OO are tight - I've had to clear material from under the cab splashers and around the smokebox saddle and I'll take more out to be sure we have comfortable clearances there.
At the same time as starting this, I've been looking at the isinglass printed resin kits. I'd been aware of this range developing for some time but wasn't overly taken with some of the early examples I saw. More recently, though, the quality of the printing process has improved and encouraged by the Bill Bedford carriages I recently finished, I thought I'd have a dabble. What tipped the scale was the availability of a D274 Lavatory Third, one of the 58' Gresley carriages which I think are the best looking carriages to run in this country.
You order the kits in sections, if that doesn't sound tautologous: the body is one item, floor another, bogies another. No underframe components are offered. I went for body and floor in this case and sorted out MJT items for the rest.
This is what turned up, within a couple of days; body sides still attached to each other, ends, roof, floor, generic instructions and a copy of the Isinglass drawing for this vehicle. As these generally show liveries and variations and list numbers and withdrawal dates, they're invaluable and worth a fair bit of the kit cost on their own.
The floor is designed to take either RTR bogies (using the boss) or MJT ones (snap the boss out and you have guides for the brass MJT mount. Unfortunately the floor was only 56' long, so I had to wait for a replacement. Here the assembled bodyshell is perched on the short floor.
When the replacement came, I was greatly impressed to see that my suggestion of adding the full length footstep to the print had been acted upon. The printed step isn't as fine as a plastic or brass one would have been, but it's much stronger.
The printing on the sides was much better than I've seen in the past, but it's not yet a match for etched or moulded parts. There are raised square areas on the print and in one place the side much have sagged slightly in the printer so a doorframe and droplight weren't straight. I did some work with a burnishing pencil and left other areas to see how filler primer would help. You can also see the characteristic pips which the Mousa vehicles also had and which have to be filed flat.
The body went together with cyano and very little effort. Subsequent to the above photo I added 40 thou partitions each side of the lav and at the brake end to make the whole thing more rigid.
After that there were a few days awaiting the replacement floor.
Underframe populated - the MJT components give it a bit of weight as well which is no bad thing.
Body primed - it had two or three light coats of filler primer on the sides - and I've started detailing the roof. The roof has a pair of parallel lines in side to help you get the vents central, but no other except, in this case, the skylight for the van end. I haven't checked in detail, but the skylight looks a bit wide and flat to me. I did take some sandpaper to the roof as the striations on that would be very visible on a finished model.
The end detail was a bit of a disappointment - there was very little other than steps. Of course, it's much easier to add than remove, so that's what I did. Passenger end now with alarm gear, brake piping and a cockeyed light switch; van end with revised panelling (the original beading was simply incorrect) and holes for handrails and lamp irons drilled. I've put the lamp irons fractionally high so they don't interfere with the body/floor join.
Roof now with destination board holders, vents, fillers and handrails as well as the rain deflectors. I'm out of Evergreen rod for the rainstrip so that is having to wait for the moment.
So this is where it is right now; I'm also out of black spray cans, so the underframe isn't beyond primer either. I gather our local Halfords is open again so I may get there this week.
On the whole I'm pleased with this. The sides still show print marks when you look along them and the ends are too thick - this has been raised as a concern elsewhere. Just to give you an idea, here are the model ends compared to prototype shots:
You can see that the end ought to fit between the sides to give a scale thickness beyond the end of the panelling and that isn't the case. However in 4mm it's hardly terminal and the range is still developing, so it remains to be seen what can be done. It's still a handsome vehicle and I can live with the compromise, to be honest. You don't get the level of detail I found on the Mousa kits, but that allows you to do your own personalisation and detailing which, to be frank, isn't rocket science.
Irritatingly that passenger end photo also shows a handrail which isn't on the drawing and I hadn't noticed before.
The drive unit is intended to be a Mitsumi driving the rear axle through a High Level Road Runner Plus (which I happened to have) - the gearbox is on its front parallel to the rails and the motor vertical in the firebox in this configuration. I shan't do much more to the body now until I've put all that together and tested it. One thing which has become apparent today is that clearances in OO are tight - I've had to clear material from under the cab splashers and around the smokebox saddle and I'll take more out to be sure we have comfortable clearances there.
At the same time as starting this, I've been looking at the isinglass printed resin kits. I'd been aware of this range developing for some time but wasn't overly taken with some of the early examples I saw. More recently, though, the quality of the printing process has improved and encouraged by the Bill Bedford carriages I recently finished, I thought I'd have a dabble. What tipped the scale was the availability of a D274 Lavatory Third, one of the 58' Gresley carriages which I think are the best looking carriages to run in this country.
You order the kits in sections, if that doesn't sound tautologous: the body is one item, floor another, bogies another. No underframe components are offered. I went for body and floor in this case and sorted out MJT items for the rest.
This is what turned up, within a couple of days; body sides still attached to each other, ends, roof, floor, generic instructions and a copy of the Isinglass drawing for this vehicle. As these generally show liveries and variations and list numbers and withdrawal dates, they're invaluable and worth a fair bit of the kit cost on their own.
The floor is designed to take either RTR bogies (using the boss) or MJT ones (snap the boss out and you have guides for the brass MJT mount. Unfortunately the floor was only 56' long, so I had to wait for a replacement. Here the assembled bodyshell is perched on the short floor.
When the replacement came, I was greatly impressed to see that my suggestion of adding the full length footstep to the print had been acted upon. The printed step isn't as fine as a plastic or brass one would have been, but it's much stronger.
The printing on the sides was much better than I've seen in the past, but it's not yet a match for etched or moulded parts. There are raised square areas on the print and in one place the side much have sagged slightly in the printer so a doorframe and droplight weren't straight. I did some work with a burnishing pencil and left other areas to see how filler primer would help. You can also see the characteristic pips which the Mousa vehicles also had and which have to be filed flat.
The body went together with cyano and very little effort. Subsequent to the above photo I added 40 thou partitions each side of the lav and at the brake end to make the whole thing more rigid.
After that there were a few days awaiting the replacement floor.
Underframe populated - the MJT components give it a bit of weight as well which is no bad thing.
Body primed - it had two or three light coats of filler primer on the sides - and I've started detailing the roof. The roof has a pair of parallel lines in side to help you get the vents central, but no other except, in this case, the skylight for the van end. I haven't checked in detail, but the skylight looks a bit wide and flat to me. I did take some sandpaper to the roof as the striations on that would be very visible on a finished model.
The end detail was a bit of a disappointment - there was very little other than steps. Of course, it's much easier to add than remove, so that's what I did. Passenger end now with alarm gear, brake piping and a cockeyed light switch; van end with revised panelling (the original beading was simply incorrect) and holes for handrails and lamp irons drilled. I've put the lamp irons fractionally high so they don't interfere with the body/floor join.
Roof now with destination board holders, vents, fillers and handrails as well as the rain deflectors. I'm out of Evergreen rod for the rainstrip so that is having to wait for the moment.
So this is where it is right now; I'm also out of black spray cans, so the underframe isn't beyond primer either. I gather our local Halfords is open again so I may get there this week.
On the whole I'm pleased with this. The sides still show print marks when you look along them and the ends are too thick - this has been raised as a concern elsewhere. Just to give you an idea, here are the model ends compared to prototype shots:
You can see that the end ought to fit between the sides to give a scale thickness beyond the end of the panelling and that isn't the case. However in 4mm it's hardly terminal and the range is still developing, so it remains to be seen what can be done. It's still a handsome vehicle and I can live with the compromise, to be honest. You don't get the level of detail I found on the Mousa kits, but that allows you to do your own personalisation and detailing which, to be frank, isn't rocket science.
Irritatingly that passenger end photo also shows a handrail which isn't on the drawing and I hadn't noticed before.
Re: West End Workbench
Yes, there is a handrail at that end Jonathan.
Given the thoughts about Kirk kits on this site, are Andy Edgson's prints getting there, in your opinion?
John
Given the thoughts about Kirk kits on this site, are Andy Edgson's prints getting there, in your opinion?
John
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Re: West End Workbench
Hi Johnathan
Are you using their bogies too or another source?
I'm looking at them for a couple projects I have on shelf once I work out which I need (West Riding set & tourest set, plus 2 observations cars)
Price wise they are same as Hornby bogies, and both need wheels (guessing these will need bearings too)
Are you using their bogies too or another source?
I'm looking at them for a couple projects I have on shelf once I work out which I need (West Riding set & tourest set, plus 2 observations cars)
Price wise they are same as Hornby bogies, and both need wheels (guessing these will need bearings too)
oOo
Brian
Garage Hobbit!!
Modelling in 00 on my heritage line, very GCR inspired
Brian
Garage Hobbit!!
Modelling in 00 on my heritage line, very GCR inspired
- Chas Levin
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Re: West End Workbench
jwealleans wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 9:41 pm Nice to bring something almost to the stage of completion. If I'd got my finger out it could have been done a month ago, but what is there to rush for at the moment? Final interior completed at the weekend and fitted yesterday, so with glue now dry it was all on to assembly. Still some minor height and alignment tweaks to make but it's essentially there. Posed with a part-weathered Great Northern for effect.
Superb looking, very nice indeed (as is the Great Northern)
Chas
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Re: West End Workbench
I recently got a couple of spare pairs of Andy's bogies with two coach kits. If I wanted more standard 8'6" bogies I'd be buying Hornby - the level of detail to me is very good, even if the steps are rather fragile. I would have thought the Hornby bogies might come with wheels but depends where you are buying them I suppose. I haven't tried so don't know if they are available direct from Hornby?
Andrew
Andrew
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Re: West End Workbench
Worth noting, I was not trying to be a smart arse, about Hitchin however, I do know that there were some occasions when
J6's were fitted with tenders that were slightly longer overall, and would have had some impact on smaller
turntables in terms of unbalancing the weight distribution.
Loco and carriages look good Jonathan,
Paul
J6's were fitted with tenders that were slightly longer overall, and would have had some impact on smaller
turntables in terms of unbalancing the weight distribution.
Loco and carriages look good Jonathan,
Paul
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Re: West End Workbench
Thank you everyone. To go through the questions in order:
John, the surface finish on these isn't up to a moulded Kirk side, but the detail is finer and things like commode handle holes are ready made. I wouldn't use one of these for a steel or plywood vehicle, but I think for wooden sided ones it's fine. I didn't go to town on removing imperfections in the panelling so I could see how far painting and varnishing would hide them. There are glazing recesses as well so the windows won't be as deeply inset as on a Kirk.
Brian, the bogies are MJT as is everything else below the solebar. Hornby bogies come with wheels as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure how easy it is to fit bearings into Hornby bogies.
Chaz, thank you.
John, the surface finish on these isn't up to a moulded Kirk side, but the detail is finer and things like commode handle holes are ready made. I wouldn't use one of these for a steel or plywood vehicle, but I think for wooden sided ones it's fine. I didn't go to town on removing imperfections in the panelling so I could see how far painting and varnishing would hide them. There are glazing recesses as well so the windows won't be as deeply inset as on a Kirk.
Brian, the bogies are MJT as is everything else below the solebar. Hornby bogies come with wheels as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure how easy it is to fit bearings into Hornby bogies.
Chaz, thank you.
- Atlantic 3279
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Re: West End Workbench
I agree that those 58'6" Gresleys are very good looking. The quality of sides you've had gives me further cause for cautious optimism should I ever receive some sides for a rebuilt pantry third.
I understand the recent drill at Halfords is/was that you cannot go into the shop. Either click, and collect from the door, or order at the door and wait for staff to bring your item to the till. I nearly used our Halfords a couple of weeks ago, but saw the queue outside, remembered the sometimes leisurely pace of service I've had there in the past (even when they didn't look busy), and decided that I could manage without for the time being.
I understand the recent drill at Halfords is/was that you cannot go into the shop. Either click, and collect from the door, or order at the door and wait for staff to bring your item to the till. I nearly used our Halfords a couple of weeks ago, but saw the queue outside, remembered the sometimes leisurely pace of service I've had there in the past (even when they didn't look busy), and decided that I could manage without for the time being.
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Re: West End Workbench
The above pretty much summarises why i haven't been near Halfords either. That and they keep asking for my email address 'to send me my receipt'. Yeah, right.
Re: West End Workbench
Paul issues relating to the J6 and indeed the linked J2 are worth investigating and I'm sure that a separate/new e thread would be justified.john coffin wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:57 am Worth noting, I was not trying to be a smart arse, about Hitchin however, I do know that there were some occasions when
J6's were fitted with tenders that were slightly longer overall, and would have had some impact on smaller
turntables in terms of unbalancing the weight distribution.
Loco and carriages look good Jonathan,
Paul