B3 Livery Question

[GWRSwindon]

I've got a question on the B3s (GCR 9P) in LNER days - does anyone know what liveries the engines carried after Grouping until withdrawal? I'm aware of the B3/3 being repainted into black, but I'm not entirely sure what the other five carried.

[jwealleans]

Lined green up to the war and then black.

Plenty of pictures online - see here for an example.

[GWRSwindon]

Lined green up to the war and then black.

Plenty of pictures online - see here for an example.

Thank you, this is quite helpful!

Does anyone know if No. 6165 'Valour' was one of the Neasden or Gorton/Immingham locos?

[Pyewipe Junction]

Lined green up to the war and then black.

Plenty of pictures online - see here for an example.

Thank you, this is quite helpful!

Does anyone know if No. 6165 'Valour' was one of the Neasden or Gorton/Immingham locos?

Up to 1923 - Gorton, 1923-27 King's Cross, 1927-35 - alternated between Immingham and Neasden with a few months at Gorton in 1934/5, 1939 - Woodford Halse, some time after 1945 - Lincoln.

[GWRSwindon]

Lined green up to the war and then black.

Plenty of pictures online - see here for an example.

Thank you, this is quite helpful!

Does anyone know if No. 6165 'Valour' was one of the Neasden or Gorton/Immingham locos?

Up to 1923 - Gorton, 1923-27 King's Cross, 1927-35 - alternated between Immingham and Neasden with a few months at Gorton in 1934/5, 1939 - Woodford Halse, some time after 1945 - Lincoln.

Thank you very much! Shed Bash UK only goes so far for this kind of thing.

[GWRSwindon]

Does anyone know what caused the B3's mediocre reputation? So far I only know of their tendency to burn large amounts of coal. I'm beginning to wonder if the B3's really deserve their poor reputation after all.

[Pyewipe Junction]

Does anyone know what caused the B3's mediocre reputation? So far I only know of their tendency to burn large amounts of coal. I'm beginning to wonder if the B3's really deserve their poor reputation after all.

The consensus seems to be a firebox that was too small for the boiler coupled with poor valve events. Coal consumption was partially addressed by the conversion of four of the class to Caprotti valve gear.

[john coffin]

Since most classes of Robinson 4-6-0's seem to have a reputation for being hungry for coal, there must have been
something that this otherwise interesting engineer missed.

Again referring to Dr Tuplin, he suggests that the shape of the fireboxes, with their big lumps where the rear axle
went was the major cause of the problems, something to do also with the draft.

It seems that by adding a rear carrying axle, then a large firebox, ala Ivatt 251 or Gresley 4-6-2 were able to
produce enough steam for most of their cylinders. Ivatt certainly was an advocate of the boiler being necessary
to almost overwhelm the cylinders with its output. The boiler of the larger Ivatt Atlantic is always claimed to have
a Wootton Firebox. Recently there has been a lot of dispute about this because of course that was originally designed
to use low quality coal. However it is certainly a wide at the bottom firebox, where as the Robinson even with the
Belpaire seemed to miss the trick that Churchward had found in his boilers, since the GWR managed to create for
all of its life well working 4-6-0's and yet not a decent Pacific. Mind you most of their route could not handle the length.

Since Robinson and Churchward knew each other it is difficult to understand how Robinson got it right for the Directors,
but not really for any of the 4-6-0's for passenger trains, and didn't chose to change them.

Paul

[Pyewipe Junction]

Since most classes of Robinson 4-6-0's seem to have a reputation for being hungry for coal, there must have been
something that this otherwise interesting engineer missed.

Again referring to Dr Tuplin, he suggests that the shape of the fireboxes, with their big lumps where the rear axle
went was the major cause of the problems, something to do also with the draft.

It seems that by adding a rear carrying axle, then a large firebox, ala Ivatt 251 or Gresley 4-6-2 were able to
produce enough steam for most of their cylinders. Ivatt certainly was an advocate of the boiler being necessary
to almost overwhelm the cylinders with its output. The boiler of the larger Ivatt Atlantic is always claimed to have
a Wootton Firebox. Recently there has been a lot of dispute about this because of course that was originally designed
to use low quality coal. However it is certainly a wide at the bottom firebox, where as the Robinson even with the
Belpaire seemed to miss the trick that Churchward had found in his boilers, since the GWR managed to create for
all of its life well working 4-6-0's and yet not a decent Pacific. Mind you most of their route could not handle the length.

Since Robinson and Churchward knew each other it is difficult to understand how Robinson got it right for the Directors,
but not really for any of the 4-6-0's for passenger trains, and didn't chose to change them.

Paul

I don't think your comments really apply to the earlier GC 4-6-0s, pre B2, but you are correct, Robinson was either unaware of developments on the GW (which is hard to believe) or just carried on his own sweet way, exhibiting the hubris that was so common among CMEs. The Directors steamed so well because their firebox-to-boiler ratio was spot-on.

In 1937 the LNER published a table showing, in rather crude terms, the coal and oil consumption of selected classes. Of particular interest is the comparison between the B7s, B16s and K3s: 61.8, 63.8 and 60.5 lbs of coal per mile respectively. Given that the B7s normally hauled heavy freights in areas where there are a lot of adverse gradients and waiting around, this is not a bad result.

[john coffin]

Whilst I agree some of the early Robinson locos seemed quite successful, I tend to look at things in terms of
how many locos of each class were built. Most other groups produced quite long runs of a class, even if they
had different classes, ie GWR Kings, Castles, then later Halls etc. But the NER produced a large number comparatively
B16's whilst few GCR classes seemed to get bigger than 10 locos. Robinson always seemed to tinker.
Even the LMS at the beginning had problems with the Royal Scot, and yet they quickly solved them by changing the
boiler. The LNWR Patriots were claimed to be such rubbish, yet they survived to receive tapered boilers.

Personally, I think that the firebox design over the rear axle was the cause of most problems.
Paul