Copenhagen Fields track is set for 1932. Can anyone provide any details of the signals at the north end of the tunnel up to that period.
The following images are as good as I have found.
The top picture with the pacific emerging from Gasworks tunnel. The stop and distant signals are 'off' along the Down Main no.1 line to the Down fast line with the stop signal(s) being worked by Belle Isle Down box (closed in 1933) with the distant signal worked by Copenhagen Junction box and the other stop signal that is opposite (with the distant signal below) is again worked by Belle Isle Down box and would take a train from the Down Main no.1 line to the Down South London Goods line that went via Goods And Mineral Junction with the distant signal being worked by Goods And Mineral Junction box. The bracket signals on the left of the picture I am not sure if they were worked by Belle Isle Up box or if Kings Cross Arrival or Departure boxes had some control over them(?) probably John thesignalman or Stevie would know for certain.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Don't know how far a composited image of the two Pathe Film frames assists, but this is how I reconcile the diagram with the pictures so far as the Down signals are concerned:
I'd be interested to see an image of the diagram that hasn't received the Procrustean treatment; might help to clarify the arrangement of the Up signals!
Thanks for that. We would only need three of the routes active. The distant & home signals would be worked simultaneously for expedience. I have made somersault signals work in 2mm scale before, but in this case it would likely be that the arm moves and the spectacle keeps a ‘neutral’ position. Don’t hold your breath for it. There are other signals that are more pressing.
That bracket signal to the left of the picture which I believe is on the Up Carriage line (or Up Relief line) the stop arm (which isn't featured in the picture) was for a time during the later 1920s or early 1930s(?) a three position semaphore arm capable of showing either straight horizontal for stop or a 45% degrees angle for caution or 90% degrees straight up vertical for clear with the corresponding red, yellow & green aspects during darkness.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Re those Up signals Tim Watson, the specifics of what that Up signal at the entrance to Gasworks Tunnel should look like depend on what period you want Copenhagen Fields to depict there.
It can just be made out in the diagram which you posted that at one time that particular Up line had stop and distant signal arms suspended from the same gantry that carries the pictured Down signals.
The partially shown Up signal in 'your' photo was a later installation and, as Mickey has part-mentioned, was one of the three upper quadrant three-position american-style semaphore signals (the other two were in the station 'throat', south of the tunnel) There were very few examples of 3-position semaphores in the UK; maybe no more than about 30. A few were put in at Keadby Swing Bridge, several at Victoria (Eastern side), on the Ealing & Shepherds Bush Railway, and I know of solitary signals (trials probably) on the GW, at Paddington Departure and Wolverhampton Low Level.
So the three at King's Cross constituted a notable proportion of the total, and were commissioned by, I think, the L&NER, though as to when it was done, I'm thinking that I've read (but can't rediscover where at present) that this was early in the 'Grouping' period - possibly 1923/4 - when the Up Carriage line was modified and re-designated Up Relief, so that Up passenger trains could run directly to all platforms, not just into
1 - 5.
I have at some time seen that a photo exists somewhere of only this specific, R/hand bracket, signal at Belle Isle, which consisted the 3-position-style subsidiary arm just visible in 'your' photo (but which I think could actually only display stop and caution positions; respectively red, and yellow light at night), but above that was a full-size 'american'-style 3-position main arm with an (also not-pictured) route indicator : This was in fact the only one of the new signals which could give the Clear indication (arm vertical; green light at night).
I think this signal also had a notice board affixed to the main post, similar to that on the later equivalent colour-light signal (KC84, as seen in the 1960s/70s to state something much like : - "No passenger train to pass this signal unless Y/Y or G aspect displayed" : [ The indistinct upright rectangular item on the pictured signal's main post might well be the said notice board.]
I may be able to obtain details from the staff Circular for the introduction of these 'three position' signals and will be back in touch if successful.
The part-pictured Up signal,along with all signals south of the pointwork in your diagram, disappeared with the power resignalling operated from the 1932-1971 signal box at the end of platforms 5/6, although Belle Isle Down box remained operational for a little longer; to 1935 IIRC, but operating the 1932-new ground-mounted colour-light signals at the north end of Gasworks Tunnel.
Incidentally, in case of interest, there was one prototypical feature which I don't see in your photo of Belle Isle Down Box. It is one about which I would be astonished if it were not there during any period that CF includes. This feature is a trailing trap point in the Down Goods just south of the points from the Down Main, operated by the 1932 KX Box as the north end of its No.176 points (the south end of which was the facing Down Slow to Down Goods point), and which I know was still there in the mid-1960s.
This was to derail any vehicle which might have broken free and run away back in the "Up direction" (i.e. down) the Down Goods line's short but steep gradient, thus hopefully preventing a potential 'head-on' with a passenger train on the Down Slow.
Whether that trap point was present throughout the time that Belle Isle Down box was operational I am uncertain. I'll see if I can unearth anything about that as well.
[ Edited re 3-position signals, and the Down Goods trap point, 15.49 Thurs. 19th Feb. 2020]
Last edited by StevieG on Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 7 times in total.
A very well done Tim. Leaving aside Belle Isle Down box which existed around 35 years before I first travelled through Belle Isle around 1967/68 you've certainly managed to capture 'the feel' of the area especially the Goods And Mineral Junction area and the entrance and exit to Kings Cross Goods yard in the background. Belle Isle along with Goods And Mineral Junction and Kings Cross Goods yard is worth remembering in a detailed model as it was an interesting railway location and was also featured in the 1955 Ladykillers film.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
I have just found this decent version of the well known view of the 1472 in Belle Isle in 1923. It clearly shows the three position bracket signal in place. Not sure about the height of the signals immediately behind though - seem to be very high for the location.
The signal bridge behind the 3-position bracket signal appears to carry the underslung dolls for the Down lines. Your diagram indicates that it also carried a doll for Up Carriage Line signals, although I can't make any of them out on the picture showing 1472. Could it be that the bridge was deliberately designed tall in order to accommodate Up line signals that might need to be mounted higher, for sighting reasons? This doesn't, however, explain why no trace of the Carriage Line signals can be seen in the picture. If they were present as shown on the diagram, then I would expect to see something in the picture confirming that presence.
Tim Watson,
Ahead of finding any of the other detail previously mentioned ; a little bit of detail that possibly might help with your original queries, two photos of GNR signal structures (refitted with UQ arms), with suspended dolls :
1st; Looking south from Hadley Woods bridge between New Barnet and Greenwood (Photo: Geoff Kerwin, from Facebook)
2nd; 1969 view north from New Barnet station footbridge. (Photo: Steve Gwinnett)
A rather nice photograph Stevie of the New Barnet North Box Down slow & Down goods lines home signals at the north end of the station in 1969. This gantry was somewhat spoiled after the Down goods line between Oakleigh Park & New Barnet North Box was abolished late in 1969 which meant that the two left-hand arms were removed leaving just the Down slow & Down slow to Down fast line arms only until the New Barnet & Oakleigh Park areas were re-signalled with multi-aspect colour lights in the autumn of 1970.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Sorry that I still have no pictorial help regarding the 'three-position' signals' introduction Tim Watson.
But I have obtained some details of their indications and applicability from a Circular which looks as if it might have been published in connection with the introduction of these signals but does not positively state that or quote their introduction date (the date of the previous Circular being cancelled may be relevant) : So, below, some of the Circular's details, which may be of interest for what they're worth : -
"LONDON & NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY.
(SOUTHERN AREA)
Circular No. 43,091a.
KING'S CROSS.
USE OF UP RELIEF LINE FOR PASSENGER TRAIN WORKING.
The Up Relief Line, in addition to being used for Empty Coach Trains and Engines, may be used for Passenger Trains for Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 Platforms.
SPEED RESTRICTION.
Speed over the Up Relief Line must not exceed 10 miles per hour.
This cancels Circular No. 38800a, dated 17th January 1922.
V. M. BARRINGTON-WARD,
Superintendent (WESTERN SECTION).
