What colour posts for NER lattice-posts?

[nutford]

Anybody know what colour the posts for NER lattice post signals were?

The one in the pic (West Tanfield) in front of the signal box is clearly not white; I've seen them modelled in NER dark red, but is that correct or were they black...? I have another pic of this signal allegedly 1931, and it again appears to be some colour other than white. Whether never repainted by LNER, or LNER painted them black.... ??

[majormagna]

My NER signalling book states that iron lattice posts were painted the same way as wooden posts; so I take that to mean "white with the bottom four feet in black". an undated photo seems to show the signal post being all-black, but a closer inspection shows a clear contrast between the black bottom and white upper.

[nutford]

Major - well I agree, what you describe is what you'd expect.

Except I have 3 photos of that signal, from different angles, and even against a pale background in good light the post looks dark.

In fact when you contrast it with the white on the back of the signal arm - I don't think the post can be white. The top of the post and the signal arm are against the same background, and I don't think they can be the same colour.

Peter White, builder of a very detailed model of Masham (next station down the line, where again photos show 'dark' posts), painted his NER red.
He I'm sure knows way more than me about this stuff, but whether he guessed red I don't know. I have also asked NERA, so maybe they may know.

There is I suppose also the possibility that the contrast in your pic - can't really see it on my screen but don't doubt it's there - could be between RED upper and black base. It's also interesting the contrast between the post and the white stripe on the signal arm in your pic; and while we have to allow for the effects of angles and shadows of course, but there is also a light-coloured box of some sort half-way up the post, which is a lot lighter than the post itself....

[nutford]

Another photo which is of interest perhaps.

This is Melmerby in 1913, and the old lattice post signal is being taken down. Between its uprights you can see the new solid post signal that has replaced it, and if you enlarge it the contrast between the white of that post and the dark of the lattice is very clear.

Could it be explained by the shadows caused by the lattice-structure? I don't think so...... seems just too big a contrast? And the shade of the lattice the same as what would have been the dark red of the gaslight. Perhaps Peter White has it right....

The bottom picture is of a lattice post signal at Beamish - which is painted white, but not sure what date it is supposed to represent. It is a colour pic, but I have rendered it B&W to see how it looks. Different quality film etc of course.... but make of it what you will.

[nutford]

And just to confuse the issue - the restored lattice post signal at Leyburn.
Painted black.

[majormagna]

Perhaps then I misunderstood the NER signalling book, maybe when it says that "iron lattice posts were painted the same way as wooden posts", perhaps it actually means that "ironwork was painted black" (as it was on wooden-post signals)?

[nutford]

Perhaps then I misunderstood the NER signalling book, maybe when it says that "iron lattice posts were painted the same way as wooden posts", perhaps it actually means that "ironwork was painted black" (as it was on wooden-post signals)?

Perhaps. The finial on the top was wooden, and does appear to be painted white. In one photo the post, and light, while dark appear significantly lighter than the rear of the spectacle plate, implying both might have been red.

Or maybe just there was no one method. It's nice to think there was a rule, it was all done like that, so if we can determine the rule our modelling would be accurate - but of course it wasn't like that 100-odd years ago.

That I can think of, the NER would have had no use for white metal paint other then possibly this - ironwork was red, or black. The LNER would eventually have repainted them, but not NER red; would you use white, or black to repaint a dark red signal post.... my gut-feel is by 1930-ish most were probably black, even if they started off red.

I am minded by Peter White's choice of red for NER colour, as having communicated with him in the past I know how thorough his research was. But if I get a reply from NERA (and they are normally very good) I will post it.

[thesignalman]

And just to confuse the issue - the restored lattice post signal at Leyburn.
Painted black.

Well, bless my soul - another of my photogrpahs stolen off the web and reproduced on this forum without either permission or credit:
https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... uct_id=830

The colour is silver, actually. That photograph was taken when the line was operational, so it cannot be described as "restored".

At that time, all of the ex-NER posts along the line were silver but this probably does not relate to NER practice.

The dark ones is photographs may well be just rust through worn paint.

John

[nutford]

And just to confuse the issue - the restored lattice post signal at Leyburn.
Painted black.

Well, bless my soul - another of my photogrpahs stolen off the web and reproduced on this forum without either permission or credit:
https://433shop.co.uk/index.php?route=p ... uct_id=830

The colour is silver, actually. That photograph was taken when the line was operational, so it cannot be described as "restored".

At that time, all of the ex-NER posts along the line were silver but this probably does not relate to NER practice.

The dark ones is photographs may well be just rust through worn paint.

John

I do apologise, but would add it was not knowingly 'stolen' by me, and I slightly resent the possible implication to be honest. I simply found it on-line at a totally different web-site to the one you mention above, with no visible attribution. However, having checked I have found that IF you scroll right down to the bottom of the page, there in small print IS the copyright info. So yes my mistake.

While I do fully appreciate your irritation, if people can't reproduce photos they find because they have no way of being sure if the copyright owner (if there is one as with many older photos it may have expired, though obviously not this one) may object, then this and many other forums would be much the poorer, and research - which from the help you frequently give others on here you clearly do much to support - much more difficult.

That said - now I know it is your copyright I will (rather pointlessly now!) give you the appropriate credit, or delete it if you prefer, as obviously I had no intent to use your copyright photo improperly - not least as you have on several occasions provided me with most helpful information!

[nutford]

Well - some more evidence.

The pics below - clearly marked as public domain - is an illustration from 1928. The original poster is unclear whether it is a colourised photo or painting, but it doesn't matter for our purposes.

The interest is the NER gantry signal; the lattice lower post is clearly in NER red, while the dolls are white. Since the overall level of detail seems quite good, and the artist has gone to the trouble of differentiating between the two, then it may suggest that is correct. Of course if colourising a photo he may have been guessing, but it would probably have been an informed guess from contemporary observation/knowledge.

The third pic is of Melmerby station, and close examination suggests that the lower post is a dark colour, while the dolls are indeed lighter - white presumably.

BUT - and there is always a 'but'..... then we have the lower pic, a contemporary illustration of York in the 1910's - 20s, and the lattice signal posts appear black or maybe dark grey.

So.... hmm. I appear to have proven they were red... unless they were black... or white. Joy.

[Starbeck50D]

Just to speed things up, here's the reply I sent to the NERA Archivist Richard Lacey after he contacted me today: we could find no evidence that NER signal posts (and also LNER, BR) were painted red. This goes for lattice and wood posts. As I mentioned [to Richard], I think you would have got into hot water with the Board of Trade as well - red being a colour associated with stop.

The photos from the period are all B&W - some show lattice posts which appear to be dark, and I think these are probably either because the posts were dirty/sooty, or because the white lead paint had discoloured over time with sulphurous coal smoke. If you chipped away the paint on a lattice post you might find red oxide primer underneath, but this was a primer coat not the final colour.

Illustrations 369/370 in "NER Signalling" show white posts at the King Edward Bridge & Newcastle No.3; the frontispiece shows a white signal bridge at Bank Top, Tyne Dock[also starting to look a bit dark on the photo, though fairly new]. There are several other shots of signals around Newcastle & Tyne Dock which we didn't use; all have white lattice signal posts, some showing signs of discoloration.

The only variation from white which we mention is the use of "chocolate & cream" in place of black ironwork and white posts on the Stainmore line (page 107) and this is unfortunately based on secondary evidence, namely a letter to Railway Magazine asking why it was done...

The "box" half-way up the post on the Pontop Crossing signal is the EP motor. I can confirm that the signal at Leyburn (and a couple at Bedale) were painted in the silver-grey metallic colour also used for bridges. Presumably the painting contractor was told to paint "all metalwork" in the silver-grey. The Leyburn signal is a contemporary of the Melmerby ones (both by Stevens, probably from the 1870s/1880s) and although they look dark, so do the crossing gates at Melmerby. I think this is a case of white lead paint discolouring over time (see above).

I know the NER influence went a long way but the colourised photo is at King's Cross. However, I can't imagine the GNR painting signals anything other than white.

Best wishes
Neil Mackay (Editor & Co-Author, A History of NER Signalling)

PS from pendant's corner - strictly speaking the lattice posts with NER fittings were called "inside arms" as there was of course no "slot" in the true sense of the word (p 106)

[Starbeck50D]

PPS there is a Colour-Rail shot at Clifton (York) showing a J21 passing below a signal bridge on a Down goods train. The whole signal bridge, timber dolls included, is black. Basically just filthy. BRE 1113 shows A1 60127 heading south past Loco Yard box in the late 1940s. Black or dirty grey signal bridge. We know the ones at York were white to start with, it's just that they got dirty and weren't cleaned.

[nutford]

'I know the NER influence went a long way but the colourised photo is at King's Cross'

yes.. very silly of me lol! I realised that this morning....

Well, Richard at NERA contacted me today, essentially with story as you recount it. The problem I have with it is if the signal post is dark because of soot etc... how come the fence immediately behind it, crossing gates, rear of signal arm, signal box, are all so clearly white - or similar anyway. And not just in that pic - in all the pics I and Peter have seen of the Leeds Northern.

I suppose the answer may be 'because they were easy to clean and the lattice posts weren't worth it/on the schedule'..... but that begs the question why do the wooden posts always look white?

I have had a reply from Peter White too, who says he just guessed red, as he didn't believe they were white. Far from daft, as steel footbridges were red....

So...... am I 100% convinced? Nope. Not least since all the pics seem to show them as dark, so presumably they didn't stay white very long, why on earth would the NER continue to paint them white..... And there is one glaring inconsistency in the 'white' argument; if the white-painted metal ladders on lattice-post signals look black/dark because of soot/corrosion whatever... why do the white-painted metal ladders on wooden posts look white ???

Could it be one of those things where somebody 'up top' said paint them white, but the painters just did their thing as it was daft..... Anyway - my posts will be grey. Whether that is faded black or dirty white, only I will know

Thanks for the help guys, appreciated.

[Starbeck50D]

The only other thing I can add is that in August 1892 Miles Wright wrote the following about Newton Dale (timber signals of course): "The new distant signal has never been primed over with paint. This will take 2 coats. The homes and advance signals have all a dark background which would be improved by one coat..." Red or black would certainly not help to pick the signals out against a dark background; the comment suggests that they were darkening with age and needed "freshening up". There is nothing in any of the MW notes to suggest any colour other than white for timber and lattice signals in his area (there were both - he calls the lattice ones "iron signals"). The photo on p4 of the NER Signalling book shows what white signals should have looked like (at York). A painting tender for the Nidd Valley branch (LNER dated 1933 but pre-printed and applying over the NE Area) doesn't differentiate between the colours but states "2 coats paint on Wood Signal and stay posts" and "2 coats paint on Iron Lattice signal posts, brackets and overline bridges, painted on all sides and edges (both sides measured)". I assume that the district engineer's staff would monitor the contractors but of course the Bedale and Leyburn signals indicate that this wasn't always done 100%. I would paint your posts pale grey and say that the painting contract is about to be awarded

[nutford]

Great info. thanks.

Just sprayed them pale grey. So somebody will now prove they were in fact yellow