Cross-London Transfer Freights

[rockinjohn]

Hi all, back in the mid '50s the route for Feltham/Acton etc from Ferme Park Yard was with Hornsey's J6's usually, but witnessed both J'6s&J50's, was the single line connection @Harringay(west?)to the St Pancras to Barking line the connection being Westbound only,their was only one Goods Train per week&rtn, that went via the Canonbury Curve with run round @ Dalston Junc to Proceed Westwards unlike between the Wars where all Goods Trains went that way,So was the Harringay single line Curve a WW2 wartime installation?Seem to remember seeing a photograph of an HST transferring from Midland Lines to Bounds Green for Servicing?

[thesignalman]

The Harringay Curve came and went a few times . . .

It opened in 1868, closed 1872, re-opened 15/5/16, closed 22/8/20 and re-opened 8/1/40. So yes, the last re-opening could be classed as a WW2 jobbie.

John

[StevieG]

.(duplicate post deleted)

[StevieG]

Not only when it was opened/closed rockinjohn, but also how (including direction/s) it was operated when it was open appears to have varied.
At least by c.1960 the Harringay curve was mechanically signalled for both directions, between Ferme Park South Down and Harringay Park Junction boxes (Harringay West Station box, locally known as 'Harringay Passenger', had no control over the Down Goods line or the Curve), but Up movements over it could only be signalled from Ferme Park Down yard.
The Curve was in effect out of use again for a time from April 1969 when FPSD box was "...temporarily closed until further notice.", until its closure was made permanent and control of the Curve and south end of the Yard transferred to FP North Down box.
But it was not until the present ECML end signalling was commissioned in approx. 1974/5 that Up movements via the Curve could also be signalled from clear of the north end of Harringay Viaduct, along Down Slow No.2 commencing from signal K440 beside Hornsey station.

[rockinjohn]

Thanks "Signalman"&Stevie G a very comprehensive answer to that query,as a sideline I once saw a Southern Region C1 33033(must have come up the (curve) in the Ferme Park Holding Sidings,& this particular loco was seen by me so many times on the Southern around South London &once on the Neasden avoiding line past the back of the MPD, I wondered if their were any other class members @ times!jj

[Mickey]

I remember the 'Harringay curve' being temporarily closed back in 1969 and I think a rumor even circulated that it was going to be closed and lifted as well?.

Myself and a railway friend managed to get into Ferme Park South Down box back in 1971 when it was still standing redundant up against the tall brick retaining wall after obtaining a B.R. cover note and removed 6 levers and there quadrants out of the 'high end' numbers of the lever frame (right-hand side) but that day is mentioned on another thread titled Ferme Park South Down in 1971.

[kudu]

Thanks "Signalman"&Stevie G a very comprehensive answer to that query,as a sideline I once saw a Southern Region C1 33033(must have come up the (curve) in the Ferme Park Holding Sidings,& this particular loco was seen by me so many times on the Southern around South London &once on the Neasden avoiding line past the back of the MPD, I wondered if their were any other class members @ times!jj

From the number I take it you mean a Q1. I've just had a look at the North London 1953 Working TT printed in the "District Controller's View" series published by press Publishing. This shows only one Southern working to Ferme Park, from Norwood, allocated to a Q (Norwood Jnct never had Q1s), which used the Harringay Curve, returning light with a reversal at Dalston. This J class freight left Norwood at 2.15 am, so I doubt it has anything to do with your Q1. On the other hand there were plenty of Feltham-Brent workings by Q1s, as well as Feltham-Neasden, so in 1953 and no doubt for years after that they would have been common on the Acton Wells-Cricklewood line that runs behind Neasden shed. My recollections of Q1s include them heading east from Willesden Jnct High Level, where a passageway ran right next to the tracks - an impressive sight and sound as they stormed towards me. (I'm sure I included this in my "A Place by the Railway" piece I posted here some years back.)

Other Southern types, all Feltham-based, in the timetable are 700 0-6-0s, S15 4-6-0s and H16 4-6-2Ts. The S15s worked only to Old Oak Sidings, Brent or Neasden and the H16s only to Old Oak Sidings, leaving the 0-6-0s to monopolise Southern workings through to Temple Mills. There was also one Nine Elms H15 4-6-0 working to Neasden, taking vans from Brentford. (I can trace no return working - how did the loco get back to Nine Elms?)

I also notice at least one J6 working between Ferme Park and Hither Green over the North London, an alternative to the Widened Lines route. I wonder if Hither Green Q1s took over any of these in later years? I certainly saw them locally, but maybe they only worked to Acton yard and so never reached the North London.

Kudu

[Hatfield Shed]

...From the number I take it you mean a Q1. I've just had a look at the North London 1953 Working TT printed in the "District Controller's View" series published by press Publishing. This shows only one Southern working to Ferme Park, from Norwood, allocated to a Q (Norwood Jnct never had Q1s), which used the Harringay Curve, returning light with a reversal at Dalston. This J class freight left Norwood at 2.15 am, so I doubt it has anything to do with your Q1. On the other hand there were plenty of Feltham-Brent workings by Q1s, as well as Feltham-Neasden, so in 1953 and no doubt for years after that they would have been common on the Acton Wells-Cricklewood line that runs behind Neasden shed. My recollections of Q1s include them heading east from Willesden Jnct High Level, where a passageway ran right next to the tracks - an impressive sight and sound as they stormed towards me. (I'm sure I included this in my "A Place by the Railway" piece I posted here some years back.)

Other Southern types, all Feltham-based, in the timetable are 700 0-6-0s, S15 4-6-0s and H16 4-6-2Ts. The S15s worked only to Old Oak Sidings, Brent or Neasden I also notice at least one J6 working between Ferme Park and Hither Green over the North London, an alternative to the Widened Lines route. I wonder if Hither Green Q1s took over any of these in later years?...

Long out of the (real) LNER period, but there's a good photo of Q1 33021 standing by Harringay Up Goods box with a van train, captioned as 1961 in David Percival's KX Lineside 58-84.

That's enough for me to have a coffee pot on goods at the London end of my BR(ER) late steam to diesel transition modelling. Any excuse will do! Likewise if there was any evidence of an S15 I'll have one of those like a shot...

[rockinjohn]

Hi Kudu yes your right Q1 I called it after the Southern Railway numbering scheme C1!,I actually saw @ the same point on another visit a"W"tank number long forgotten, stranger things happened @times,Temple Mills&Ripple Lane too, not that I got there very much,I saw a "U1" 316xx entering Somers Town goods yard one lunch time, early '60s,Your comment on the J6's over the widened lines, never witnessed(possible ban) or seen a photograph(nice to see) would have been a 34B example,if it happened,N1/J52 or J50 were regulars, never saw an N2 either, the "Met" gang wouldn't part with them I suppose, fully occupied on the Suburbans/ECW.

[strang steel]

Not a cross-London transfer freight working but for an Eastern Region train crew an interesting train working diagram at Stratford MPD during 1979 was a ECS working from the Eastern Region possibly starting from Stratford but I can't remember now exactly where the train started from but it was usually diagrammed for a class 31 loco hauling a rake of EMUs in tow for the LMR at Wolverton works. The train travelled across the North London line from Stratford as far as Primrose Hill where it joined the WCML for a run along the Down slow line to Wolverton works near Milton Keynes some 50 miles from Euston. On arrival at Wolverton the secondman (fireman) would get off the loco and nip up Wolverton box which was situated along side the Down fast line to make a can of tea. The box by that time had been reduced to a 'Ground Frame' status although the box still had a fairly large LNWR 'stirrup lever frame' that controlled a number of points and ground signals although the connections with the fast and slow lines were slotted or released with Bletchley PSB.

This working must have been going on for much of the 1970s Mickey, because at that time my nearest WCML station was (going O/T now) Watford Junction and I saw quite a few GE electric units there either going to, or coming back from, Wolverton. Often they were parked up at Watford Junc adjacent to the St Albans branch platform at weekends. I had a quick look through 1978 spotting notes and although I saw a few in the sidings, the only one I can find with loco haulage that year was 31109 plus 137 on 13th June.

[thesignalman]

I remember that working, I trained Wolverton box but never got called to work there. Although classed as a Shunting Frame, like many others under the LMR 1960s resignalling it was always staffed by the grade of signalman - it was only rostered for one shift. Apart from dealing with that train whilst training, I used to see it often from the power boxes I worked (Willesden, Watford & Bletchley) and when I worked on the North London of course. From memory, it was sometimes worked by an English Electric 3 as well as the Brush 31s. I don't remember ever putting them in the yard at Watford though, maybe they were put away there if Wolverton box wasn't staffed or maybe another problem down the line.

There was also a little box inside Wolverton Works but that was worked by their own staff. It had some old L&NWR power-operated lower quadrant signals whcih are now in the Milton Keynes museum if anybody fancies a visit.

John

[Mickey]

I vaguely remember that train working although I can't remember where it originated from 40 years on?. My driver and myself may have relieved another train crew in Stratford station but I can't honestly remember all these years later?.

A run down the LNWR main line from Willesden at Harlesden Junction and onto the Euston main line to Wolverton and returning light engine back up to London and finally to Stratford loco was a novelty for a GE train crew where most of the train workings were around the London area of the GE or working across the North & West London lines to either Clapham Junction or Bricklayers Arms in southern region territory.

Regarding Wolverton box after nipping up the box to make a can of tea I remember the signalman saying that in a previous life he had been a lorry driver this all took place back in 1979.

[Pyewipe Junction]

Here is a link to a photo on Facebook showing a J17 at Norwood Junction:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... ater&ifg=1

I assume it would have had to have gone all the way round London to get there?

[kudu]

Temple Mills - East Jnct - Lea Jnct - N London line to Willesden - W London line to Latchmere Jncts. We're south of the River now so I haven't got a clue - better ask a signalman.

So I think the answer to your question is yes.

Kudu

[thesignalman]

There are several ways to get to Norwood from the West London, but straight on at Latchmere under the main lines, Clapham Junction, Balham, Streatham Common, and turn left at Selhurst is probably favourite.

A signalman.