LNER Locomotive Font

[Paul_sterling]

Morning folks,

I've been trying to ascertain the font used for 'LNER' on locomotives without success, I was wondering if anyone would be able to shed some light on it for me please?

Background is that I need to make some custom waterslide transfers for LHJC No.29, and the (at the very least current) LH&JC font is the same as that used by the LNER. I may make these myself, or commission one of the suppliers to do the transfers (likely to be infinitely better quality than my efforts)

Thanks in advance.
Paul.

[john coffin]

Paul
depends on the dates, but for most of time LNER used Gill sans, or at least a version of it.
other, pre-grouping fonts are in this day of computing are much more difficult to relate.

Paul

[Paul_sterling]

Thanks John, much obliged.

Cheers. Paul.

[Darryl Tooley]

The use of Gill Sans on locomotives was confined to the stainless steel insignia on some A4s and the post-war unshaded lettering. Nobody seems to want to put a name to the sans font used previously; I suspect this means that the letterforms were a product of the drawing office at Doncaster.

D

[john coffin]

I am sure that actually Gill Sans came in after the introduction of the 1928 Flying Scotsman,
but I agree that it was used on the Stainless lettering on the Silver Jubilee.

I will see if I can find the book references that my ancient memory feels is back there in
the distance.

What is certainly true is there are very few people now who understand older fonts, and
can relate them to a more modern computer based one.

In addition, in the early post grouping era, almost everyone went to a font without serifs
to strike the ideal essence of modernisation that the new groups desired.

One thought is that of course the TV series Poirot with David Suchet has a stylised A4 in the
titles and therefore Art Deco style fonts. Perhaps the production company still exists, and someone
there might know what relevant fonts are used.

Paul

[JASd17]

The Gill Sans font was on the Flying Scotsman headboard, not the locomotive lettering. Until the examples stated by Darryl.

John

[Darryl Tooley]

Gill Sans was indeed introduced in 1928 and adopted for the LNER's printing almost immediately afterwards. Its use on the 'Flying Scotsman' headboard dates from 1932.

In my previous post, I forgot that the LNER totem, as used on the Q1, was also GS.

None of which helps Mr Sterling. I suspect it will be a case of looking for the closest match.

D

[Paul_sterling]

Thanks guys.

Speaking to the painters of LH&JC No.29, they have used a letter style which is early LNER, and they too said it pre dates the gill sans typeface. More info to follow from them, but I think if it is "undesignate-able" I'll form the text using pictures of No.29 with its newest paint job, which is no bad thing to be fair, that way the model reflects real life!

Thanks gents.

Paul

[john coffin]

Shildon certainly copied the lettering they had on the tender no 1002 when restored, but how accurate that was and it
depends on when and where it was last painted.

As for the fonts, from 1923 certainly they were no longer under control of the Loco drawing office at Doncaster
(if they ever were!) but rather under the control of what became later the Publicity office. They certainly controlled
the designs with both Flying Scotsmen in 1923 and 1928 in terms of livery and additional promotion activity.

The difficulty for us now is finding reference to what they did, so for instance, so far I have never found at Kew
any board minutes that relate to for instance the 1938 train and it refurbishment and presentation. I have also
not heard of anyone else finding it now.

Mind you, in terms of what the engines carried, the sheds and different works often took a different approach,
thus for instance whilst many J52/3's carried the Downcaster 6, some at Stratford used the ordinary one,
whilst Darlington used a different livery and lettering approach, many times.

Thanks for giving us another thread to pull at.

Paul

[60048]

Sorry to reopen an old thread, but it seemed appropriate.

Can anyone confirm if the LNER used Gill Sans as the font for Peppercorn A1 and A2 and Gresley A3/A4 nameplates? As the A3s were previous GNR A1s I wondered if they might have bene a different font style? I am looking to have some 3mm nameplates etched (not available anywhere else) so want to make sure I get the artwork right!

The same query goes for the BR smokebox numberplate on the same locos - does anyone know what font was used please?

Any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Rich

[65447]

Having noted the revival of this topic I read the contents and thought it a load of waffle.

There was no 'font' or 'typeface' other than the later Gill Sans, the respective drawing offices produced drawings for locomotive and tender plates on which the characters were drawn, bolt holes positioned and strengthening webs detailed; these were used as the basis for making the patterns (usually wood) from which the respective plates were cast. The same for other cast signage at stations and suchlike, if not bought in. The remainder was sign-written.

Locomotive and coaching stock lettering and numbering was by transfers and the style was more or less a continuation of that used by the GNR and ECJS. On the adoption of Gill Sans, the CME was granted an exemption for the continuance of the former, the Gill Sans only being used on special stock until the variations introduced during WW2.

Whilst Gill Sans was adopted in 1929 it only existed in upper case and it took time to develop the lower case and special characters, together with the different sizes and weights, and then to apply those styles to the many thousands of pieces of printed matter produced annually. Application to building signage took longer and, except for new construction, was a matter of gradual replacement or addition. As to locomotives and coaching stock the application was restricted to only those A4s and special streamlined sets for the Silver Jubilee, the Coronation and West Riding. Coach destination boards had painted sign-written characters, changing to Gill Sans from 1935. As was noted the Gill Sans 'Flying Scotsman' headboard was painted by Eric Gill in return for a footplate ride.

The application of Gill Sans and the retention of original styles became more muddled under Thompson during and after WW2.

As was also noted, the application of Gill Sans came under the control of the Publicity function. During 1946 a variation of the style sheets (standard and light weight upper case characters and numerals) were produced that introduced the 'curly tail' figures 6 and 9. This was relatively short lived and reverted to the former correct style around the time of Nationalisation.

BR adopted Gill Sans, including the initial curly variations, and it was used until the introduction of the Rail Alphabet during the mid-1960s.

[Atlantic 3279]

Nicely clarified. The events of the past do not necessarily conform to expectations, definitions, classifications, terminology and norms that have developed in more recent times.

[60048]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll rephrase my question in that case, in order to produce some A3 / A4 nameplates for model locomotives, what font style is the closest to that used by the GNR / LNER respectively? The etched plates are only for me, but I know it will bug me if I get them wrong! Before anybody adds anything the ones I want are not available commercially in the scale I am modelling.

Rich

[65447]

Rich,

There's no straight answer as far as the nameplates go, as there were different styles used within the classes over time - and so dates/periods and photographs for the intended subjects are your starting points. And not forgetting re-namings and re-numberings...

RCTS 'greenie' Part One has a section of photographs of varying types, whilst Part 2A will add detail and the likes of Yeadon's Registers and similar works will supply photographs and probably highlight individual variances (I don't have the relevant Yeadons as the Pacifics never ran on the GE section - except when diverted off the ECML via Cambridge or to Newmarket from KX with race trains).

You also asked about number plates - these were a Nationalisation introduction so only after 1948 and if early on probably with the 'curly tail' Gill Sans numerals.

[60048]

That’s really helpful, thank you.. It slipped my mind that the number plates on LNER locos were a Nationalisation thing!