A nice action shot of a blue livered Deltic at the head of a Down express (1A16) hauling a rake of mainly BR Mk2s with probably a one or two BR Mk1s in the formation overtaking probably a x2 car blue livered Cravens unit standing in the Down slow line platform and more than likely a terminating service from Kings Cross. In the other direction the Up fast line starting signal (no.32) is showing a 'nice off' probably for a Up express. I estimate the date as probably in 1968.
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Welwyn Garden City in 1968
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
What was going on in Welwyn Garden City box that was situated at the north end of the Down slow line platform at the very moment the above picture was taken?.
I would suspect the signalman would more than likely be standing at the block shelf & lever frame and was just about to give 'on line' to Welwyn North box (and maybe also receiving 'on line' as well from Welwyn North at the same time for the one that is also signalled on the Up fast line?) and then as the loco and first few coaches were passing the box he would be throwing back no.21 22 & 23 levers back in the frame behind 1A16 and also watching for the tail lamp before 'giving out' back to Hatfield No.3 box.
The date maybe about a year later in 1969?.
Mickey a telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box 1972-74
I would suspect the signalman would more than likely be standing at the block shelf & lever frame and was just about to give 'on line' to Welwyn North box (and maybe also receiving 'on line' as well from Welwyn North at the same time for the one that is also signalled on the Up fast line?) and then as the loco and first few coaches were passing the box he would be throwing back no.21 22 & 23 levers back in the frame behind 1A16 and also watching for the tail lamp before 'giving out' back to Hatfield No.3 box.
The date maybe about a year later in 1969?.
Mickey a telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City box 1972-74
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
The old BR rule 147 applied between Welwyn Garden City back to Hatfield No.3 (and from December 1969 Hatfield No.2) until September 1973 over the Down slow line mainly for trains terminating in the Down slow line and Luton line platforms so that the guard of the terminating train could ring the signalman up via a fixed line telephone that was housed in a wooden box and hung on the wall of the Down slow line platform to tell the signalman in 'Garden City box' that his train had arrived complete with a tail lamp so that the signalman could then give 'Train Out Of Section' back to Hatfield and clear the block instrument. More often than not the box telegraph lad would take the phone call from the guard and then tell the signalman who would then 'give out' back to Hatfield.
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
For posterity purposes and thinking back about 47 years from memory approaching terminating passenger trains in the Down slow line platform and also the Luton line platform and also approaching Down line passenger trains arriving in the Down slow line platform and then going north of WGC the platform staff (porters) were often warned or notified of there approaching arrival by the signalman pressing a small electric operated button mounted on the face of the block shelf which rang an electric bell positioned above the platform staff room (porters room) doorway located on the Down slow line platform although I can't remember if approaching Up line passenger trains were also rang in the same way of there approaching arrival?. This way of notifying the platform staff of an approaching passenger train arriving didn't appear to be exercised by every signalman who worked the box Cecil White one of the regular signalmen at the box during the 1960s & early 1970s appeared to press the button religiously for an approaching passenger train approaching the Down slow line and Luton line platform as opposed to the other two regular signalmen at the box who may have done it intermittently along with possibly all the relief signalmen that worked the box as well?.
"Next up how a terminating passenger train at WGC was crossed over into the Up slow line platform or the 'Hertford line' platform and something that wouldn't be acceptable these days in 2018."
"Next up how a terminating passenger train at WGC was crossed over into the Up slow line platform or the 'Hertford line' platform and something that wouldn't be acceptable these days in 2018."
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Hatfield Shed
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
Brings back memories from a regular passenger's perspective. Wonder if any of the current staff at WGC would know where the Luton and Hertford platforms are now? Both these platform faces exist, and 'the Luton' is in constant use for arrival and departure of the London Moorgate inner sub service as it is the 'country end' terminus.(While the branches were in use, many railways would have had either or both of Hatfield and WGC stations suffixed 'Junction'.)
There were three branches out of Hatfield, with the Hertford and Luton routes diverging from the main line well North of Hatfield near the site of what later became WGC station. This resulted in a most impressive run of six parallel tracks out in open countryside, and from some vantage points could be observed over a good distance. (There's a good colour picture of two GNR classics, C1 and N2, running down in parallel on this section in May 1940.) Once saw four lines occupied by moving trains, which was more locos than I had for my train set at the time!
WGC station was a relative rarity on the system as a solely LNER constructed station in origin, still largely intact as regards passenger facilities on the platforms. As for that bell for down arrivals, there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to its use for this observer. I shall enjoy reading about the reversal of the inner sub workings at WGC. My modelling choice is Hatfield station - visually much more interesting thanks to near continuous development from its GNR start, more compact, has the loco shed - and operating the inner sub reversal there for the purpose of operational interest requires 'elastic time' in model form.
There were three branches out of Hatfield, with the Hertford and Luton routes diverging from the main line well North of Hatfield near the site of what later became WGC station. This resulted in a most impressive run of six parallel tracks out in open countryside, and from some vantage points could be observed over a good distance. (There's a good colour picture of two GNR classics, C1 and N2, running down in parallel on this section in May 1940.) Once saw four lines occupied by moving trains, which was more locos than I had for my train set at the time!
WGC station was a relative rarity on the system as a solely LNER constructed station in origin, still largely intact as regards passenger facilities on the platforms. As for that bell for down arrivals, there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to its use for this observer. I shall enjoy reading about the reversal of the inner sub workings at WGC. My modelling choice is Hatfield station - visually much more interesting thanks to near continuous development from its GNR start, more compact, has the loco shed - and operating the inner sub reversal there for the purpose of operational interest requires 'elastic time' in model form.
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
Regarding the ringing of the platform electric bell notifying the platform staff of an 'approaching passenger train' with the electric bell it's self being located above the platform staff room doorway on WGC Down slow line station platform Hatfield shed?. Well now I come to think of it a little bit more I believe (although I could be wrong?) that the number of rings signified which platform a train was arriving on so obviously 1-ring was for the Luton line platform 2-rings was for the Down slow line platform 3-rings was for the Up slow line platform & 4-rings was for the Hertford line platform and the reason why it has come to my mind that it was done that way is thinking about it now was that when Cecil White one of the regular signalmen at the box back in the 1960s and early 1970s when he use to ring the platform bell for an approaching stopping passenger train he always use to ring the button twice on the block shelf in the box for a passenger train that was arriving in the Down slow line platform I am pretty sure about that.Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:23 am WGC station was a relative rarity on the system as a solely LNER constructed station in origin, still largely intact as regards passenger facilities on the platforms. As for that bell for down arrivals, there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to its use for this observer. I shall enjoy reading about the reversal of the inner sub workings at WGC. My modelling choice is Hatfield station - visually much more interesting thanks to near continuous development from its GNR start, more compact, has the loco shed - and operating the inner sub reversal there for the purpose of operational interest requires 'elastic time' in model form.
With regards to which of the Hatfield or WGC layouts had the greater interest I would say your probably right regarding Hatfield having a slightly greater interest over WGC mainly because of it's three signal boxes (four originally in GNR days) and it's loco shed and the branch line going off to St Albans although I still personally liked the old WGC layout of the 1960s and into the early 1970s before the 'Welwyn flyover' became operational in 1974 and colour light signalling took over from semaphore signalling in September 1973.
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Hatfield Shed
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
Mickey, regarding that bell. The 'no rhyme or reason about it' from a passenger perspective was that some days it rang, and other days it didn't... The use of it had been explained to me by the platform staff, so that they could be correctly positioned up and down side as required.
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
Yes you are right Hatfield shed regards to the ringing of the 'platform bell' notifying the platform staff of an approaching stopping train that sometimes it would be rung and at other times it wouldn't be rung and as I previously mentioned not all the signalmen working the box at WGC would bother ringing it for an approaching stopping train. I can't actually remember if it was written down anywhere in the box about ringing it although it may well have been printed on a card stating the number of rings for each individual platform (4-platforms) and pinned on the wall but I can't honestly remember if it was all these years later?.
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Mickey
Re: Welwyn Garden City in 1968
Crossing over terminating trains at Welwyn Garden City in the Down slow line platform until about early 1974 when the 'Welwyn flyover' was opened at the south end of WGC station even though the colour light re-signalling of WGC took place in September of 1973 the old layout was still in use and was worked off the then new NX panel for several months before the then newly opened Welwyn flyover was officially opened in early 1974.
The terminating passenger train which could either be a composed of a x2 or x4 car Cravens unit a x3 car Rolls Royce unit or a Brush type 2 diesel hauled set of 'block ender' suburban coaches of about 5 or 6 coaches in length would arrive in the Down slow platform although it could also arrive in the Luton line platform but that platform was usually but not exclusively used for terminating trains during the evening peak hours and would stop.
Provided the Down fast line was clear from the WGC Down fast line outer home signal no.22 sited just beyond the twentieth mile bridge to beyond the WGC Down fast line starting signal no.24 the points immediately outside the box from the Down slow line to the Down main line would be reversed & locked via a FPL lever and no.10 signal lever working a colour light search light type of signal with a right-hand set of 'feathers' (route indicator) situated just off the Down slow line platform near the box would be reversed while depressing button 'B' at the same time that was mounted above no.10 lever on the block shelf (button 'A' that was also be side button 'B' on the block shelf was pressed for the route from the Down slow line platform along the Down Goods line towards Digswell) would allow the terminating train to proceed from the Down slow line platform out onto the Down main line and then come to a stand on the Down main line with the rear of the train just beyond the ground disc signal situated just underneath the Hunters road over bridge (the train would be standing opposite the south end of the current day EMU sidings).
Providing no trains were signalled along the Up fast line through WGC or from the Up fast to Up slow line and the signalman was in a position to cross the train over from the Down main line into the Up slow line platform he would first reverse the main to main crossover points and then un-lock and reverse the Up fast to Up slow line connection and then re-lock the facing points via a FPL lever and then clear the ground disc signal situated underneath the Hunters road over bridge. Once or soon after the ground disc signal was cleared the train would then be propelled back through the main to main crossover and then through the Up fast to Up slow line connection and stop in the Up slow line platform (formerly no.3 platform). Sometimes it would happen that if a train that was being crossed over from the Down main line over to the Up slow line platform it was subsequently found to be more desirable for it to go into the Hertford line platform (formerly no.4 platform) maybe because another train was approaching WGC along the Up fast line and was going to be 'turned in' off the Up fast line to stop in the Up slow line platform the driver of the propelling train coming back through the crossovers would be 'waved through' the Up slow line platform by the signalman from the open box window usually by just using his arm or a lever cloth during daylight hours or by a bardic lamp during the hours of darkness and of course the Up slow line platform starting signal no.47 had to be cleared for that move as well to allow the train to run right through the Up slow line platform and stop south of the station behind a ground disc signal (opposite the present day Up yard sidings) after which the road would be set up for the train to proceed from a ground disc signal and on into the Hertford line platform or as it was sometimes called the 'back platform' by the signalmen.
Nowadays that propelling movement from the Down main line through the main to main crossover then through the Up fast to Up slow line connection with the driver being at the north end of the train looking back along his train but either being in the driving cab of a x2 or x4 car Cravens unit or a x3 car Rolls Royce unit or the cab of a Brush type 2 with a secondman as well wouldn't be allowed the driver would have to change driving cabs and driver the train in the 'direction of travel' which would of course rule out using a diesel hauled train with a loco at only one end.
The terminating passenger train which could either be a composed of a x2 or x4 car Cravens unit a x3 car Rolls Royce unit or a Brush type 2 diesel hauled set of 'block ender' suburban coaches of about 5 or 6 coaches in length would arrive in the Down slow platform although it could also arrive in the Luton line platform but that platform was usually but not exclusively used for terminating trains during the evening peak hours and would stop.
Provided the Down fast line was clear from the WGC Down fast line outer home signal no.22 sited just beyond the twentieth mile bridge to beyond the WGC Down fast line starting signal no.24 the points immediately outside the box from the Down slow line to the Down main line would be reversed & locked via a FPL lever and no.10 signal lever working a colour light search light type of signal with a right-hand set of 'feathers' (route indicator) situated just off the Down slow line platform near the box would be reversed while depressing button 'B' at the same time that was mounted above no.10 lever on the block shelf (button 'A' that was also be side button 'B' on the block shelf was pressed for the route from the Down slow line platform along the Down Goods line towards Digswell) would allow the terminating train to proceed from the Down slow line platform out onto the Down main line and then come to a stand on the Down main line with the rear of the train just beyond the ground disc signal situated just underneath the Hunters road over bridge (the train would be standing opposite the south end of the current day EMU sidings).
Providing no trains were signalled along the Up fast line through WGC or from the Up fast to Up slow line and the signalman was in a position to cross the train over from the Down main line into the Up slow line platform he would first reverse the main to main crossover points and then un-lock and reverse the Up fast to Up slow line connection and then re-lock the facing points via a FPL lever and then clear the ground disc signal situated underneath the Hunters road over bridge. Once or soon after the ground disc signal was cleared the train would then be propelled back through the main to main crossover and then through the Up fast to Up slow line connection and stop in the Up slow line platform (formerly no.3 platform). Sometimes it would happen that if a train that was being crossed over from the Down main line over to the Up slow line platform it was subsequently found to be more desirable for it to go into the Hertford line platform (formerly no.4 platform) maybe because another train was approaching WGC along the Up fast line and was going to be 'turned in' off the Up fast line to stop in the Up slow line platform the driver of the propelling train coming back through the crossovers would be 'waved through' the Up slow line platform by the signalman from the open box window usually by just using his arm or a lever cloth during daylight hours or by a bardic lamp during the hours of darkness and of course the Up slow line platform starting signal no.47 had to be cleared for that move as well to allow the train to run right through the Up slow line platform and stop south of the station behind a ground disc signal (opposite the present day Up yard sidings) after which the road would be set up for the train to proceed from a ground disc signal and on into the Hertford line platform or as it was sometimes called the 'back platform' by the signalmen.
Nowadays that propelling movement from the Down main line through the main to main crossover then through the Up fast to Up slow line connection with the driver being at the north end of the train looking back along his train but either being in the driving cab of a x2 or x4 car Cravens unit or a x3 car Rolls Royce unit or the cab of a Brush type 2 with a secondman as well wouldn't be allowed the driver would have to change driving cabs and driver the train in the 'direction of travel' which would of course rule out using a diesel hauled train with a loco at only one end.