G-Train Locomotive Works / Graeme King Joint Venture - GCR/LNER 4-6-0s - B3/1 & B7 available; B3/2 in progress

[Horsetan]

…. There are various options that can be considered for the tender. There are a number of Bachmann RTR incarnations of GC tenders if you can get hold of one, including the self-trimming type, or perhaps a suitably tweaked Hornby O1 tender could be used. I notice that PDK offer one variety of GCR tender as a separate etched kit, although it looks to me as if it would need some changes in order to be right for a B3. ...

PDK don't actually say on their website which variants are covered by their kit T19. I'll have a look in the D49 kit that I have.

This might give a clue, but I thought 62660 has a self-trimming tender

[45609]

…. There are various options that can be considered for the tender. There are a number of Bachmann RTR incarnations of GC tenders if you can get hold of one, including the self-trimming type, or perhaps a suitably tweaked Hornby O1 tender could be used. I notice that PDK offer one variety of GCR tender as a separate etched kit, although it looks to me as if it would need some changes in order to be right for a B3. ...

PDK don't actually say on their website which variants are covered by their kit T19. I'll have a look in the D49 kit that I have.

This might give a clue, but I thought 62660 has a self-trimming tender

I think the PDK GCR tender is neither fish nor fowl. Glancing at the photos on the PDK site it appears to have a mish-mash of features without it actually representing one particular type. I guess it could be adapted but there are other, possibly better, places to start. I did a fair bit of research on GCR tenders to help John Bateson some years ago and it eventually developed into a 14 page document. I wouldn't say that it is exhaustive but helps with most of the features that differentiate one type from another. PM me if you would like to see a copy as it is too large to upload to this post.

Cheers...Morgan

[Horsetan]

…. I did a fair bit of research on GCR tenders to help John Bateson some years ago and it eventually developed into a 14 page document. I wouldn't say that it is exhaustive but helps with most of the features that differentiate one type from another. PM me if you would like to see a copy as it is too large to upload to this post.

That sounds rather useful. Depending on file size, a copy may be e-mailed to me. I'll PM accordingly

[croesnewydd]

https://traders.scalefour.org/greatcentralmodels/
The Version 3 instruction document is 24 pages although a later version is 3.1 and uses essentially the same document.
Its a complex beast!
You should be able to download this from the above site. It caters for P4, EM and '00'
Cheers

[croesnewydd]

When built the B3s were fitted with standard 4000G tenders with water pick up. The only visual difference to standard was the Iracier axle boxes and the coal plate heights. Self trimming versions were not fitted until April 1924 with 6169 following in August 1925.
The picture of Butler Henderson shown earlier was a standard tender - simple evidence is the position and height of the front coal plate and the lack of the Iracier axle boxes.
Later on, they reverted to a standard tender.

So up until 1923, use a standard tender, after 1923 its pick and mix time, neither choice is absolutely wrong.

No doubt Morgan will be able to confirm or expand.

[Atlantic 3279]

Unfortunately, "standard" isn't a thoroughly helpful word to use in connection with GC 4000 gallon tenders, even if confined specifically to the Robinson versions without self-trimming bunkers, since it ignores variations such as wide or narrow front soleplates (with the associated differences in handrail positions and side sheet extensions around the crew space), the quite visibly different lengths of the side coal plates (and the associated different shapes of the top-front corners of the cornices) along with the possibility on the earlier examples of open coal rails or the same plated over externally or internally - and then there are water-pick-up and water filler variations along with various rear coal plate styles and positions to consider.

[Horsetan]

Unfortunately, "standard" isn't a thoroughly helpful word to use in connection with GC 4000 gallon tenders, even if confined specifically to the Robinson versions without self-trimming bunkers, since it ignores variations such as wide or narrow front soleplates (with the associated differences in handrail positions and side sheet extensions around the crew space), the quite visibly different lengths of the side coal plates (and the associated different shapes of the top-front corners of the cornices) along with the possibility on the earlier examples of open coal rails or the same plated over externally or internally - and then there are water-pick-up and water filler variations along with various rear coal plate styles and positions to consider.

If in doubt, revert to picking a photo of your chosen example in the year you're after....if you can find one.

[Pebbles]

I would have thought that in the case of new build with a new build tender, the tender would have matched the loco. This must have been the case with self trimming tenders as - not including the Scottish D11s - 29 self trimming tenders were built. I come to this figure as RCTS states that B7s from No 5467 onwards were equipped with self trimming tenders; I make this number come to 23. D11s Nos 5501-5 and 5511 were also initially equipped with self trimming tenders but exchanged these with non self trimming tenders from B3s - RCTS part 3B page 90. In the case of B7 tender exchanges this is mention in Part 2B page 40. For the B3s I have previously mentioned 2B page 20. As the D11s, B3s and B7 were late build locos I would assume that there would also have been a level of consistency in the case of the non-self trimming tenders built for these classes.

[Atlantic 3279]

Conventional (rather than self-trimming) tenders built for the locos with high-arched cab roofs would have the wide front, to match the wide cab of such locos, and hence the wide front section to the soleplate, the turned-out profile to the handrails and sidesheet forward extensions, plus, generally, I would imagine they would have the longer coal plates at the sides. They are also likely to have had the fullest version of the rear coal / division plate and full water pick up gear if actually built for genuine GC loco orders, rather than say for Scottish Directors or ROD locos. So within the context of tenders used with the big-boilered 4-6-0s there should be a fair degree of uniformity, although the self-trimming types, similar in side view, had wide tanks, wide soleplates throughout their length, hence no need for greatly turned-out front handrails and sidesheet extensions, and had very different front coalplate / tank front features.

The uniformity among the later-built Robinson 4000 gallon not-self-trimming tenders doesn't amount to quite the same thing as an overall "standard" design of GCR 4000 gallon tender.

[Pebbles]

I had believed that the term "Standard" is being used in the context of the B3. Pages 154 to 158 of Volume Two "Locomotives of the Great Central Railway" by E.M.Johnson may be of assistance. I may be in error but, one point not previously mentioned is that the soleplate of the self trimming tenders was of a uniform 8' 9" throughout their length, and therefore the widening of the front section was not required.

[Atlantic 3279]

Correct as I understand it - thanks for reminding me of that. I have therefore edited my previous post to try to avoid confusion for those reading it.

[scratcher]

Very interested in the B7 kit.

I have a Nucast B2 kit to complete, it came with no tender so I have picked up a Bachmann one which has the advantage of pickups and DCC wiring in place. I also intend to swap the supplied bogie with one from a Bachmann D11 which has a sprung centre pivot. I've already done that for a Nucast A5 I completed recently, which worked really well.

[scratcher]

The backhead casting looks excellent, do you have any plans to make the backhead and maybe some of the other castings available separately, would be really useful for those of us who have the K's / Nucast kits still to complete.

[Atlantic 3279]

Thanks for the interest in the follow-on B7, and regarding fittings I'm reasonably sure they should be capable of being offered separately from the boiler. Some of them, as pictures have shown, are produced in a multi-part mould and would have to be supplied as a set.

As my fellow conspirator is burning the midnight oil trying to get his chunk of the "full prototype" ready for an auspicious union with the resin parts later this week, and has therefore only found time to post his latest update over on the "no criticism of large manufacturers or of dumbed-down television programmes permitted" website, I hope he won't mind the fact that I've stolen his images and that I am about to post them here, in reduced form. He can take issue with me in person, mid-week, if necessary....

Later today I also hope to post images to show that partly in response to comments I have striven to produce alternative castings for tall (as per early photos), medium (as per official drawing) and later low versions of the dome cover, along with a plant-pot chimney that is as close as I can get to the type shown in photographs, given the limited time that is available.

Just to prove that the principle of smallest things causing most trouble is alive and well, I'm also on at least my fourth attempt to make an effective and durable mould for extra sandbox lids.

I must go now. Time and tide wait for no man.

[Atlantic 3279]