Gantry Mounted signal boxes

[UpDistant]

With regard to the signal box at Hexham, there appear to have been a few red herrings thrown into the pot.

There are a lot of images in the red/cream colour scheme which are, unfortunately, in the recent past after track and signalling "rationalisation". This rationalisation has resulted in all of the remaining points (turnouts) being motor controlled, and most of the signals have gone over to colour lights. That's why you can't see any point rodding and very little evidence of signal wires.

The box has a 60 lever McKenzie and Holland frame situated at the front of the box (front as in middle of the gantry) and parallel to the tracks. The locking frame was mounted horizontally below the floor, with all of the point rodding being emerging at the back (at the brick pillars). I do have a photo which shows this - unfortunately it is copyright so I can't post it here.

For archive views try Ernie Brack's Flickr account https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswis ... 7452889327. He does change the contents, however, so it is worth checking it regularly.

[John Palmer]

Glad that UpDistant has come to the rescue with some specialist knowledge.

Unfortunately I can't find any dates the photographs in the site I linked were taken, but semaphores are plain to see in some of them, so I assume these were mechanically worked and account for what appear to be wire runs from the cabin to the pulleys.

Conventionally there is unlikely to be any rodding in the control of a signal before the wire connection reaches the balance lever on the signal post, so you won't need any Wills (or other) rodding to simulate signal controls. In the case of a lower quadrant arm there will be a rod connection between that lever and the signal arm, because the pull on the wire is converted by the lever into a push on the rod that moves the arm into its lowered position. With an upper quadrant arm no rod is required because no 'push' is needed to elevate the arm to its clear position.

I understand that in 1911 the NER received a report containing the following:

“The Northern Division practice of gantry boxes is not to be encouraged, and this type of box should only be used where unavoidable.”

[Graeme Leary]

Stevie G - have just read your last post and concede there are still be many gaps in what I need to learn about all this. (And also your most recent comments John - many thanks to you both).

So have I interpreted it correctly?, there would there have been 2 different types of 'mechanism' coming out from the signal box, (even the like the one I'm mounting on the overtrack gantry); 1 (which I've called a cable) for signals (semaphores) and another (rigid) for points? Or have I completely misunderstood the way these work and there's some other mechanism that controls these 2 separate functions? (I won't even ask about level crossing gates which I know were also operated from some signal boxes).

Have started this project with (as you will have gathered) zero background knowledge of the whole topic so I'm open to a 'crash course' in signal box operations.

Graeme

[Bunkerbarge]

Don't worry Graeme, there are many of us in the same boat as you! I do know though that gates were operated by large wheels mounted on the end of the lever frame and perpendicular to it, via I believe wires and pulleys. Looked a bit like a ship's wheel.

[John Palmer]

Graeme, you have it right: for mechanically operated layouts following British practice pull wires control semaphore signals (including both running signals and ground signals/discs) whilst rodding works most other apparatus (including level crossings).

My introduction to railway signalling was Kichenside and Williams' 'British Railway Signalling' dating from 1963, still fairly readily and economically available second-hand. Alternatively, you may find it helpful to take a look at https://www.signalbox.org/ for further information about railway signalling practice, with an introduction to the block system of working. If you want further details of the hardware and how it was set up there are various sources available, at a cost. The Institution of Railway Signal Engineers published a number of green pamphlets addressing such matters, of which No.10 'Mechanical Signalling Equipment (British Practice)' is probably the most relevant to you. Unfortunately the web page for downloading an order form for this and other IRSE publications is no longer accessible, so it may be that the Institute is no longer prepared to make them available to non-members.

Beyond this there are various items available in the second-hand market that may be of interest. There's a 2-volume soft cover reprint of H Raynar Wilson's 'Mechanical Railway Signalling' which contains much illustrative material dating from the 1900's. Also worth considering is 'Railway Signalling and Communications', a collection of lectures on these subjects prepared for publication in the 1940's by T.S.Lascelles and published by The St Margaret's Technical Press.

The references I've described all pertain to British mechanical signalling, much of which has been now been swept away. Afraid I have little to offer so far as current practice is concerned.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks again John. As my LNER (with a hint of LMS) layout is set firmly in the grouping era the books you list should cover what I need. The signalbox.org link also looks like it is worth closer study - and of course, a visit to a few (all???) of the pubs listed with items of interest which could result in longer time pondering what is on display in those places.

Graeme

[Mickey]

My introduction to railway signalling was Kichenside and Williams' 'British Railway Signalling' dating from 1963, still fairly readily and economically available second-hand.

I'll second that John I also bought the hard back second edition in 1968 (when I was 11 years old) and learnt quite a bit about the rudiments or basics of British railways signalling from it such as what the different lever colours meant and many of the block bell codes that were used by signalmen along with how to signal a train between signal boxes A, B & C plus a number of rules and regulations such as Examination of the Line or Train passed without a tail lamp or Train running away in the wrong direction or Train Divided and a number of other emergency regulations. Yes the book has been updated several times since 1963 when it was first published and I believe it is still published by Ian Allan.

[Bunkerbarge]

If you go to the National Railway Museum at York in the storage area, where tours are conducted, there is a huge signal training layout, which was used to train signalmen. They could do demonstrations on that alone, it is absolutely fascinating.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks Bunkerbarge,

I did in fact visit the section of the NRM you mention a couple of UK trips back (in 2016) but I was more interested in the 'look' and general impression of how signals should be placed on my layout rather than the detail of how everything worked. The NRM will have to be revisited with particular attention to this, which won't regrettably be until 2019 (pity didn't start this thread earlier in the year as was I actually there in April!)

Graeme.

[Graeme Leary]

Greetings all.

I'm about to paint my scratch built gantry and signal box and would appreciate a lead on colours.

Some time ago I downloaded a link on Railway Building Liveries and this seem to state that either Cream/Beige with a Sage Green OR cream/beige with Brown were the most common/likely for the LNER region I'm modelling. However, have wondered if the Hexham gantry box John Palmer kindly posted shots of (red and cream/off white) was another combination that was used - or was it perhaps a 'one-off'?

From the link I've mentioned above most/all of the buildings on my layout I've painted in the Beige/deep cream (Humbrol 71) with Sage green (Humbrol 120) combination but open to other ideas. (My creation is akin to Wardleworth in the Disused Stations google but unfortunately I have only tracked down Black/white photos of Wardleworth).

Graeme Leary

[Albert Hill]

The current colour schemes on Hexham and Wylam are recent, the latter was beige below and white above in the 1970s for example.
There may be some useful detail for you at Pelaw on the disused-stations website, and photos of Ferryhill and Amble Junction boxes.
NER used prefabrication for these boxes, quicker and less disruptive but prone to fire damage and hence variations to the wooden superstructure on repair.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks Albert, much appreciated The Ferryhill signal box colour scheme is fairly close to what I've done (ie cream with green) but since my earlier posting have found David Adair's 'Modeller's Guide to the LNER' and he states that generally the contrast to the main cream colour was dark brown.

However, he goes on 'This (dark brown) colour scheme was used until about 1937 or slightly later. Sources differ as to when the first major change took place, some say 1937 and others 1939. At around this time the dark brown was replaced by green and the deep cream retained'.

This is fortunate for me as all my existing buildings, water tanks, footbridges etc have been done with the green contrast but it does play merry hell with the 2 expresses I'm replicating, supposedly as they were in the late 1920s/early 1930s as they would therefore have run past the dark brown contrasted buildings and structures. In the meantime I'll follow the post 1937 (1939???) pattern, main structure in the deep cream (Humbrol 71) and railings in the green (Humbrol 120) contrast and the signal box on top in the same manner (deep cream with railings, downpipes, window sashes etc but I know it will niggle away and I'll have to replace the green with a dark brown - even if just to keep my conscience clear!

Thanks too from all for your earlier comments on this topic.

Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

I have returned to this topic as I had the good fortune to spend some time at (and in) the signal box at Wylam. I took plenty of photos which will hopefully allow me to replicate this box more accurately.

However, the colour issue still 'confuses' me. I had painted my first mock-up of the box in the colour recommended for NER modellers (from a link titled stationcolours.info/index.php?p=1) to use Tamiya's Red Brown for railway buildings. Perhaps gantry/signal boxes do not fall under this category as the actual Wylam gantry and box (and adjoining footbridge) are a much 'redder' colour than Tamiya's Red Brown (XF64) or even their Hull Red (XF9) which I also experimented with.

I realise there were variations (and 'liberties') taken with colours but the difference is much more noticeable and John Palmer's posting earlier in this thread (Sept 17th, 2018) is what it still is, quite different from either of the Tamiya colours I've tried. (I have also seen a sheet of card sprayed with Tamiya's aerosol TS-33 Dull Red which looks closer to the current colour of the actual box).

Has any other forum member come across this issue, either modelling Wylam or nearby Hexham, colour pics of which I've seen look exactly the same as John Palmer's posted photo.

Thanks all.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[Graeme Leary]

My next query related to this topic is, on eg a main line stopping station (long enough to accommodate a stopped train of 7 or 8 Pullman length carriages plus say a Pacific loco) with 4 roads (2 Up/2 down) and 7 points and 1 diamond crossing at one end with 5 points at the other, would a signal box (in my case, bridge mounted) control points and semaphore signals at BOTH ends, eg by the use of rodding to the opposite end of the station.

Or, would there have usually been a smaller box at the 5 points end allowing easier sighting by the signal box crew of points and signals much closer to them?

I'm inclined to think the latter from both the signalman's visibility point of view and perhaps a maximum length that rodding didn't/shouldn't exceed.

Thanks all.

Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[iands]

If you are assuming all the points are 'mechanical' in operation (ie not electrically powered), then the maximum length of rodding from the signalbox to the points was 350 yards. This would include any vertical rodding runs from an overhead signal box you are proposing. So just work out the scale length of 350 yards maximum for your chosen scale (N, OO, O, etc.) If any points lie outside this limit then a second signalbox would be required. Hope this helps.