Pre Grouping

[52D]

A convincing defence Malcolm as you say it has brought out a heated debate long may controversial topics be discussed on here. I note that the style of wall building in the map photo appears to be similar to the wall behind the Policeman photo with brick courses being built on top of dressed stone forming pillars with small arched niches between them, although i cant spot a curved LT&SR notice with 2 schweppes adverts adjacent to a tile map they could be in a different location.

[Eden Blyth]

Oh dear. I opened the Forum this morning to find that I would seem to have reaped the whirlwind.

Malcolm, I was absolutely convinced that this was a rather fine hoax, a little Christmas fun perhaps. I was certainly not intending to question your integrity by alleging that you were claiming the photograph to be something that it was not. It is now obvious that it wasn’t a hoax and that my posting was badly phrased. Will you accept my apologies, please?

Agreed, it is also pretty unlikely that the photograph was physically altered before it came into your possession. The subject just isn’t important enough to most people to go to such lengths, is it?

To the photograph itself. It seems to show an NER tile map at Marylebone that appears to be fitted with an unusual dado and is quite possibly mounted on a wooden backing. I suggest the latter because the apparent distortion shown in the area of the slip divider between title and map tiles could be down to movement in the timber beneath. It may also be that the dado is actually a wooden frame.

I think that, in this situation, a timber framed and mounted map panel would be quite likely. Although not as permanent as the NER station displayed maps, if the NER were buying “advertising space” on somebody else’s wall this would be likely to be the case. Perhaps we are looking at the very large equivalent of a tinplate advertisement. There is also the cost aspect, since a ceramic tile dado and slip surround would cost almost as much to make as the map tiles themselves. Presumably a wooden surround would be very much cheaper. We know that the NER supplied their maps in panel – only form, because one still exists in situ. I now wonder if they posted several timber – mounted panels on “foreign” territory as a temporary advertising medium. This would also explain the emergence, very occasionally, of a complete set of removed tiles in good(ish) condition. It is next to impossible to remove them from masonry or brickwork, so were these originally from timber mounted sets?

What a remarkable photograph. Thank you. I hardly dare ask for it now (!), but, re my posting of 23rd October under Tiled Maps of the NER, would a copy be possible? I will gladly cover all the costs involved.

[Malcolm]

Eden,

It is now obvious that it wasn’t a hoax and that my posting was badly phrased. Will you accept my apologies, please?

Nothing to apologise for, Eden. As you say, just phrased a little badly, but I now understand what you meant.

I now wonder if they posted several timber – mounted panels on “foreign” territory as a temporary advertising medium. This would also explain the emergence, very occasionally, of a complete set of removed tiles in good(ish) condition.

You could be more right than you think. Closer inspection of the photo reveals some kind of pipes running behind the frame near the top. This would rule out ceramic tiles, and increase the possibility of a framed reproduction. (hung on the pipes?)
Interestingly enough a similar situation occurred back in 2003 on the LNWR Society page. Someone had posted a picture of LNWR staff sitting in a group in front of a North Eastern Railway poster board. The link is:

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Mystery/A001/M001.php

As for the photo itself (and the others in the series), I did a bit of research and made some enquiries, which produced the following:
The photos were by an unnamed stringer for the Tropical Press Agency who supplied photos to a number of London Newspapers and periodicals. The photos were taken between 9:00am and 4:00pm on Saturday 26th October, 1907 (I can't find the reason why). The pictures are supposed to come from the Hulton Archive by way of Getty images, but there is a lot doubt about who owns the rights, which is why I felt safe posting them.
If you want a copy PM me your email address Eden, and I'll send you the jpeg image (you can print off as many copies as you like).

Malcolm

[industrial]

What is wrong with the Great Centrial having North Eastern information on there London station they were advertising the London Tilbury & Southend Railway as well. Also they will be showing that if you want to get to the NE trertory you don't nessery have to use the Great Northen line to try to drum up business as well.

[Malcolm]

Closer inspection of the photo reveals some kind of pipes running behind the frame near the top.

Had another good look. Not pipes, but part of the stonework (coping?), but it still means the map looks like it is not attached to the wall, but hung.

Malcolm

[buckjumper]

Circa 1930. Railway employees beside a steam locomotive.

The loco photo with plate in situ is doubtful for the 1930's as all plates were removed at grouping???

Yep. GER M15 (LNER F4) No.177 was renumbered 7177 in May 1924 and given the smaller LNER cast iron plate in place of the larger GE brass one. The date of the photo can be narrowed further: the cast iron triangular plate on the rear weatherboard under the roof (showing the number 1 for a Stratford district loco) was introduced in 1915 following a reorganisation of the Motive Power Districts in July of the previous year.

Despite the post mid-1915 date, the loco is obviously in GE ultramarine livery - the black edging to the tank panel (despite the grime) is still evident, as is the R of "GER". In 1921 GE locos gained large Train Reporting numbers on their side tanks/tenders in large yellow serif numerals, and this was accomplished very quickly. So I suggest a 6-year window of mid-1915 to mid-1922.

Other LNER alterations to this loco, not present in the photo, preclude a 1930s date.

[CVR1865]

Great detective work.

[Malcolm]

Excellent work. I had some real doubts about the date.

Malcolm