Identified GN location

[Mickey]

Funny that you should say that Stevie regarding who worked that Hawkshead turn out from the Up slow to Up fast line south of Brookmans Park because when I wrote my previous post I nearly questioned it again which box did actually work it was it Marshmoor or Potters Bar(?) because I do recall looking at Richard's Marshmoor track diagram that he posted a couple of years ago and thought at the time that I noticed that the Hawkshead turn out was shown on it but was it just 'drawn in' and wasn't coloured in and just left clear just to indicate the presence of the turn out?. Anyway your knowledge of Marshmoor box is obviously from a first hand account having visited the box.

Was the Hawkshead turn out abolished by 1968/69?. Maybe I am getting my dates confused but I do remember riding on a small number of mainly local trains along the Up slow line south through Brookmans Park station and being turned out through that lead and up the fast line towards Potters Bar.

Sorry to deviate from the original topic heading.

[jwealleans]

John, we were looking at trying to recreate the C2 and train in your 1938 photo on Tony Wright's layout. Is it a Cambridge service, do you know? Graham is saying he can't identify it in the CWN.

[StevieG]

Yes, apologies to Richard, jwealleans and all for the unintentional thread drift. I won't add further in this thread to my previous posts' info herein.

[Eightpot]

Got my computer sorted this morning, but have been informed that to reduce the size of a file is a somewhat complicated process unfortunately. Is it possible for this website to accept larger files? The photos I tried to install are around 3.5 mbytes!

I have found a couple of photos - too large in k or mbytes unfortunately to reproduce here - in the book ''The London and North Eastern Railway, A century and a half of progress - (LNER 150)' by Patrick Whitehouse & David St John Thomas, ISBN 0-7153-9332-4 looking north taken from the Down side embankment just north of Hawkshead Bridge.

The one at the bottom of page 89 shows C1 3301 double heading C2 3252 on the Up Slow dated June 1933. Although wrongly captioned as 'near Knebworth' it was definitely taken by Hawkshead Bridge as Brookmans Park station can clearly be seen in the background. Despite some drifting smoke there is no apparent sign of the crossover being in place.

Page 125 has a photo take a little closer to BP of a train on the Up Main hauled by C1 4429 which not only shows a complete spread of the signals on all four tracks, but also the siding occupied by several wagons. No sign of any crossover, undated, but probably around the mid-1930s. The Down Main somersault signal I can recall still being there in the early 1950s

[Mickey]

Ok Eightpot that corroborates the fact that the Hawkshead 'turn out' leading from the Up slow to Up fast line wasn't laid in until the early stages of WW2 several years after the box had closed.

That Down siding I presume was a short single siding of about four or five wagon lengths long or maybe slightly longer(?) I believe there is a photograph of it that I have seen on another topic thread on this forum several years ago. Also I presume the siding was possibly provided for a local merchant?. I further presume that the area surrounding Hawkshead was fairly desolate farming country up until the early 1920s although by 1926 there must have been some early residential development in that surrounding area and people to justify the LNER to build and open the nearby Brookmans Park station.

[JASd17]

Eightpot, it is a reasonably straightforward process to alter the size of images if you have the right sort of program. Send me a Private Message, I am sure we can sort something out.

John

[StevieG]

Eightpot, I believe that the second photo which you described as on p.125 of the book, sounds very much like the one which I described earlier in this thread with at least two of the signals having electric motors.

[JASd17]

The first image from Eightpot taken from a similar spot to the original photo.

More to follow.

John

[JASd17]

Eightpot's other photo north of Potters Bar looking south and scans of A Scotland's photos in 'LNER 150' Whitehouse and Thomas, as described earlier in the thread.

John

[Eightpot]

Firstly, thanks to John (JASd17) for processing the photos to get them on here.

The 1st Potters Bar photo was taken with a 50 mm lens and the 2nd with a 90 mm which shows how differing focal length lenses can alter the perspective and cause confusion of establishing the actual site.

I think the 1930s photos clearly show that there was no crossover from Up Slow to the Up Main at that time.

[Mickey]

Interesting photographs. The middle photograph is interesting showing as it does the signalling at Hawkshead circa 1930s and the bottom photograph possibly from the same era shows a Up express hauled by double-headed large & small boiler Atlantics running along the Up slow line for some unknown reason and not the Up fast line.

There were two types of GNR concrete signal posts with the one shown in the middle photograph for the Down slow line having the 'pear drop' shape pattern although I am not sure if that is the correct terminology that was used by the GNR(?) and the other pattern had straight sides and both rounded ends. I believe one shape was pre-1918 and the other shape was post-1918 but I don't know which is which or if that is exactly correct regarding the pre & post 1918 date?. Also both stop signals on the Down fast line & Down slow line have 'ribbed' arms so I presume the same is for the signal arms on both the Up fast line & Up slow line as well?.

[JASd17]

the bottom photograph possibly from the same era shows a Up express hauled by double-headed large & small boiler Atlantics running along the Up slow line for some unknown reason and not the Up fast line.

One reason might be that it is an ordinary passenger train not an express. The photo of 4475 is the same, which is why I think it is the 4.12pm Down.

John

[Mickey]

the bottom photograph possibly from the same era shows a Up express hauled by double-headed large & small boiler Atlantics running along the Up slow line for some unknown reason and not the Up fast line.

One reason might be that it is an ordinary passenger train not an express.

Yeah I didn't even bother looking at the headlamp(s) John I just assumed (wrongly) that it was an express so It just goes to show that assumptions can sometimes be wrong. Also I assumed (wrongly again) that it was a long heavy train but after 'zooming in' on the train and looking through the loco smoke it's only got about six vehicles on behind the tender and two of those are not much longer than a large box van each!. As for the large Atlantic being on the front of the small Atlantic well I am assuming again that the large Atlantic may have been on a 'running in' turn and was hooked on the front at either Hatfield or Hitchin and was ultimately bound for either Top shed or the Passenger loco.

[JASd17]

In the mid 1930s the 10.19am Down (Train 330 to Hitchin) from King's Cross was frequently double-headed, often with the GN Atlantic classes. Again the load was usually 6 carriages. I have wondered with this service if it was to return a loco north without occupying the track with a light engine.

John

[Mickey]

In the mid 1930s the 10.19am Down (Train 330 to Hitchin) from King's Cross was frequently double-headed, often with the GN Atlantic classes. Again the load was usually 6 carriages. I have wondered with this service if it was to return a loco north without occupying the track with a light engine.

Could well have been John rather than just run one Atlantic light engine back to Hitchin so the photographer has captured the locos working up to London first double-headed during the morning peak before the locos returned with the 10:19am from Kings Cross again double-headed back down to Hitchin during the mid-morning.