Turning Britannias

[sturrock]

Just a question on "turning" on the former GE lines.
How were the Britannias turned on the main routes?
In the 'thirties the B17s with short tenders were designed so they could be used -the Green Books 2B p93 shows the trouble Doncaster had carrying out this.
I know Liverpool St. fitted a long turntable eventually, but what about Cromer etc. ?
What other routes were the Britannias used on and what was done ? Was it new turntables or use of reversing triangles ?

[Pyewipe Junction]

The other thing I'd like to know is how the Britannias came to be approved for use on the GEML, when the previous limit was around 18t.

Was money suddenly made available after nationalisation to carry out the necessary bridge-strengthening works?

I think the way the LNER neglected East Anglia was an absolute disgrace.

[drmditch]

I think the way the LNER neglected East Anglia was an absolute disgrace.

The LNER never had much money, until the government backed schemes of the late 30's.
Also where was the traffic?
Not sure of the dates for the emergence of sugar beet on a large scale.
There was new light industry in Essex but again not sure of the dates.

The Shenfield electrification was planned pre-war.

Don't think the exGER continental traffic was neglected.

I think though that the railway companies (and not just the LNER) were very bad at co-ordinating between departments.
What would have been the cost of engineering works to allow (original) A1s and/or V2s to run from Norwich into Liverpool St.
How would this cost have compared with developing a whole new class of non-standard locomotives - the B17s.

There are other examples. The NEA re-signalled north of York with three-aspect colour lights, only to find that this not provide adequate stopping distances for the new fast expresses.

Never mind. WW2 saw airfields, and fuel and rubble (courtesy of the Luftwafe) traversing very minor branch lines!

[manna]

G'Day Gents

I think a lot of the problems were the GER themselves, small engines, ( so small turntables) and flimsy bridges, a lot of work had to be put into the area, just to bring it up to the point where bigger engines could be used, it all took time.

manna

[Hatfield Shed]

And money, which was always in short supply on the LNER and especially so once the North East and thus the NER took the UK's major hit of the great depression. That basically took the LNER's finances from manageable to marginal, and there was no recovery until the wartime spending kicked in (and the resulting national debt wasn't repaid until the 1980s!).

Investment had to go where it would best pay off in efficiency gains and revenue growth. The notable East Anglian investment was the Whitemoor (March) hump marshalling yard, at the time of construction from 1929 the most advanced such facility in the UK. It did the job for the LNER, and then doubled on that for the war effort when East Anglia became the unsinkable aircraft carrier with the consequent rail traffic demands.

[Pyewipe Junction]

I don't buy the arguments put forward 100%. I am sure that the LNER could have improved the GEML bit by bit over a number of years if it had had the incentive to do so. The LNER had a monopoly in East Anglia - and we all know what effect that has on service. There was probably no commercial imperative for the LNER to deliver any better service.

Anyway, back to the OPs original question (and my follow-up) - how were the Britannias turned? Was money invested in new turntables at, say, Stratford, Ipswich and Norwich (later on Parkeston Quay and Clacton).

The Britannias had a maximum loading of 20 1/4t versus the B17s' of 18t. So something would have had to have been done to infrastructure. But wait - both Norwich and Lowestoft had K3s allocated during LNER days.

[john coffin]

Not being a GE person, I am not sure about all things but I am pretty sure that there was a triangle near Norwich
There were also reasonably sized turntables at Cambridge, Parkeston and Kings Lynn, plus I think Cromer


interesting that the GE shed book series did not include the Norwich area


Paul

[Hatfield Shed]

...The Britannias had a maximum loading of 20 1/4t versus the B17s' of 18t. So something would have had to have been done to infrastructure. But wait - both Norwich and Lowestoft had K3s allocated during LNER days.

That's probably down to the relatively early construction of the route London - Norwich under financially difficult conditions, and the piecemeal assemblage of lines that were eventually rolled up into what became the GER. With different standards of construction, some routes would have accepted greater axle loads. The LNER necessarily had to focus on profitable revenue, and was the most freight dependent of all the groups. It was vigorous in the promotion of ferry traffic at Harwich, and the development of the sugar beet industry from the 1920s, as a traffic which was not as seasonal as the arable agricultural traffic that otherwise dominated the former GER lines.

The one truly significant city in East Anglia in LNER times was Cambridge. That got its fast London passenger connection via the Great Northern which had a good route to operate fast services.

If you are serious about understanding just what a rural backwater East Anglia was in C19th, and right on into C20th, and the problems resulting for those trying to build and operate a railway there with the long hangover of after affects that influenced what the LNER did and did not do, the GER Society can provide the answers.

[Pyewipe Junction]

[/quote]
The one truly significant city in East Anglia in LNER times was Cambridge. That got its fast London passenger connection via the Great Northern which had a good route to operate fast services.
[/quote]

Fast? I suggest you consult table 4 of the summer 1948 ER timetable. The fastest nonstop train I could find took 1hr 38min for the 53 1/2 miles to Cambridge. By my reckoning that's 32.8mph...

[Hatfield Shed]

The Cambridge Buffet Car express as operated by the LNER pre WWII, 75 minutes down, 72 minutes up. Not a very exciting service even then you might think, over what my sources insist was a 57.9 mile run: 46mph down, 48mph up. Except that it involved three stops, WGC, Hitchin, Letchworth, the latter pair closely spaced at only two and a half miles, and going down the worst of the ECML route, the long climb out of KX, and also a major slack at Shepreth. This was a vastly better service than Liverpool Street - Cambridge which was best part of a two hour run. The locomotive work required on the GN route was demanding, to achieve that end to end time speeds of 80mph were required.

Even now, with an electric service from WGC to KX, I cannot get between WGC and KX as fast as the 'Beer train' non-stop routinely achieved at the latter end of steam operation, circa 21 minutes. Piling down the Northern heights at over 80mph was really something, even the mainline long distance traffic didn't do that. It's typically a 25 minute journey now, albeit with several stops enabled by the much superior electric accelerations, both up to speed and braking.

[65447]

interesting that the GE shed book series did not include the Norwich area

Paul

If you mean 'Great Eastern Railway Engine Sheds', Hawkins & Reeve, Irwell Press, it came in two volumes, the first covering Stratford, Peterborough and Norwich and the second Ipswich and Cambridge.

70' turntables were installed at Stratford, Stratford (Temple Mills) Goodmayes, Southend, Cambridge, March (Whitemoor), Ipswich and Norwich by 1947 - others may have been increased in BR days. In addition there were various triangles, such as Manningtree and Norwich.

[sturrock]

Thanks John, -finally got the answer I wanted. Interesting thread though!

[Mickey]

Was there a turntable at Norwich station in steam days?. I hardly knew the GE main line and only travelled it's entire length between Liverpool Street & Norwich and return a handful of times during the 1970s but I presume that a 'Brit' could have been turned at Norwich on 'the triangle' between Thorpe Junction-Trowse Swing Bridge & Wensum Junction quite easy.

[WTTReprinter]

I have a 1952 GE Train Planning Data Compendium in my collection. P105 gives a full list of turntables.

Assuming a 70' table is required for a Brit then the following are listed:
Cambridge, Goodmayes, Ipswich Loco, March Loco, Norwich Thorpe, Southend Vic., Stratford, Temple Mills, Witham & Melton Constable.

It lists Liverpool Street as 60'. However, I seem to recall that was upgraded later than 1952.

There were some 65' tables at Colchester, Lowestoft,Parkeston, Stratford (in addition to the 70') & Yarmouth ST. I don't know if they could accommodate a Brit.

[Belvoir]

I remember seeing a B1 being turned at Witham in (about) 1957 - fascinated me at the age of eleven . . .