Pre Grouping

[Malcolm]

Three really nice pre-grouping shots on the Great Central Railway and one on the Great Eastern.
Look carefully at the shot of the porter at Marylebone station.
There is North Eastern Tile map on the wall behind him. He is standing on a baggage weighing machine. There is a set of drawers next to him containing baggage labels (I haven't seen one these since I was a kid), and look at the price of a return to Southend on the LT&SR..........three shillings and sixpence!!!!!

Malcolm

[Bryan]

So if there is a tile map on the wall, Is it Marylebone?

[mick b]

As the trolley side says London Station and he is in GCR Uniform Yes !!
The loco photo with plate in situ is doubtful for the 1930's as all plates were removed at grouping???

Mick

[52D]

On the discussion about NER tile maps i dont recall one being at Marylebone, but im willing to stand corrected. Note also the LT&SR timetable adjacent could this be the map at the Cross did GCR trains work into KC.

[Malcolm]

Sorry everyone. The porter is definitely standing at Marylebone.
Look at the lettering on his trolley.

Malcolm

[52D]

Malcolm i hope you dont mind being thrown to the wolves i will repost this on to the tile map thread for comments.

thanks

52D

[Malcolm]

Not at all. Any comments welcome.

Malcolm

[Bill Bedford]

Sorry everyone. The porter is definitely standing at Marylebone.
Look at the lettering on his trolley.

I make the lettering to be London (Stations)

Was there a NER map at St Pancras?

[hq1hitchin]

Ha ha - reckon the Midland (or their employees) would allow GC staff (look at his cap) to 'weasel' at their London terminus?

[Malcolm]

I stand by the picture I posted.
Marylebone station concourse. Near the old booking office.
The uniform is correct. The trolley is correct (GCR London).
The brickwork and architecture are correct.

This is so cool. I never thought that this picture would stir up so much debate.

Anyone with me?

Malcolm

[52D]

Malcolm in the Tile map thread nothing has been mentioned about there being a map at Marylebone i think everyone is racking thier brains over the posting of the pic.

According to Ken Hoole, there were about 24 maps made, but I think there are less than 10 left in their original locations. The one at Tyne Dock was destroyed in an arson attack in the 1970's, and the one at Hexham was destroyed when someone tried to scrape off a poster that had been pasted over it.
Courtesy of 60041.

[52D]

Malcolm accusations have been made about the authenticity of this picture/composite are you going to come clean or defend yourself. Was the picture taken on April 1st 1922.
LT&SR noticeboard and NER tilemap next to each other on a GCR station does not ring quite true if i knew more about railway uniform ive got to question the porters company.

[Malcolm]

Okay, first of all:
I agree that MAYBE the GCR could have made a copy of the map, BUT

BUT that same frame seems to swallow a little bit of the l/h bottom corner of the map, the map lighting seems to differ from that in the rest of the photo, the definition seems worse in the area of the tile map than in the rest of the photo, the frame seems to be distorted, whereas the adverts adjacent to it are straight, the top l/h corner of the map doesn't sit at all happily with the background, and with the maps being about 5'10" tall, the porter must have been a reight big lad. And finally, why ever would the GCR allow an NER tile map at their terminus?? But if this posting WAS a wind up, it was a beauty - the words sinker, line caught and I think hook come to mind.......!

This was taken on a plate camera which does not have a great depth of field so the edges are naturally distorted. As for the lighting....well....are the above comments by an expert and has he/she ever used an old plate camera??

Secondly:
The date is not April 1st 1922, but 26th October, 1907 and if you care to read the captions on the othe GCR photos, they carry the same date. IN FACT they are all part of a series taken on the same day by the same photographer at Marylebone. Here are some more in the series. You'll notice that quite a few of them carry the same blemishes (dirt on the lens).

Thirdly:
I myself was intrigued by this photo, but why shouldn't a map of the NER be on the wall at a GCR station? The GCR and the NER were both the brainchild of George Hudson, and the London extension was part of Mr. Hudson's dream for a line from Scotland to the continent. The GCR and the NER had many agreements on through workings. Many stations throughout the UK carried adverts and timetables for other companies. I could go on like this ad infinitum, but the point being it didn't seem strange to me, or I imagine to other people. The information about tile maps, especially at the beginning of the 20th century is sketchy at best. No one can provide definite historical records.

Fourthly:
I am not terribly chuffed about being accused of doctoring an historical record. If it were done (which I don't think so), twas not by me. I happen to believe it is not a fake, nor has it been altered. It goes alongside others in the series and I am of the opinion it shows something that some people find uncomfortable because it goes against what little data they have.

However, I am very happy that it has sparked such a controversy, and I do appreciate a lively discussion, BUT, be careful gentlemen what accusations you throw around. I am very touchy about my integrity, especially when it comes to history. I do think that it deserves more investigation (the tile map, not the photo), but it is difficult for me to do that from Japan. Someone will have to dig deeper in Blighty (not just comments on a forum). Anyone up to the task? I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. I stand by that photo no matter what.

Malcolm

[richard]

Hudson had his fingers in many pies but I didn't think he had much to do with the MS&LR (aka GCR) - his route to Scotland used lines that became parts of the Midland and NER.

The London Extension was much later. I'd have to check dates. If he wasn't actually dead when it was being planned, then he was living in exile/relative poverty.


As Forum Admin, I echo your comments Malcolm: I welcome the intense discussion but everyone should keep everything orderly and gentlemanly/lady-like!


Richard

[Malcolm]

Yes Richard, you are right. I should have said Sir Edward Watkins.
George Hudson was involved with the Midland, and by the time of the London extension was dead.
My apologies. I got carried away.

Malcolm.