Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

[MikeTrice]

I should qualify my previous statement. I have only ever seen the posts referred to as "Truss Posts" in LNER drawings. They are sandwiched between a pair of needle beams which stretch across the carriage underframe.

[65447]

The trussing is to impart some upward deflection at the centre of the vehicle to counteract the weight of the load to be imposed on it. As that load increases so will the stress in the truss rods (bars) and the turnbuckles are to allow the correct stress and hence deflection to be applied.

The generic term of 'Queen posts' is because there are two of them; if there were a single post in the centre of the trussing it would be a 'King post'. Earlier and shorter carriages would quite often only require a King post.

As you happen to have a copy of the original landscape format combined LMS and LNER Historic Carriage Drawings, have a look on page 86, at the two brake ends of a GNR articulated set, or on page 46 and the Glasgow & South Western 43ft stock.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks John, Mike and 65547.

Think it is (becoming) clearer now. For my 'sides' only Triplet kit I had cannibalised 3 of the old Hornby Teak composite coaches (from the R478/9 series or something similar) by removing all the 'top work' and cutting 2 of the underframes down to the correct length (as measured against p73 drawings) for the Restaurant cars and 1 down to the length on p74 for the kitchen car. A closer look at that has the 'truss angles starting a little further out towards each end (and the articulated bogies) but I think I can live with this hopefully minor discrepancy. (I also must have been focused on the centre drawing on p74 which doesn't show the underframes, whereas the one just above, does. Mea culpa!)

Happy New Year everyone, 12 hours earlier for us down here than you North of the Equator.

Graeme

[65447]

Another minor detail that ought to be noted is the provision of dynamos - according to the Diagram Book there are two fitted under the Kitchen Car, one at each end driven off the respective articulation bogies. On the two Dining Cars, one dynamo each is fitted at the outer end of the set.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks Mike (65447) for private message. Struck a wall as don't seem to be able to reply direct to you .

Thanks for offer of drawings of internal layouts of cars and presume these are different (more detailed) than those in Jenkinson and Campling's 'Historic Drawings' (which I have) on p73/4 for the triplet restaurant and kitchen cars.

I also have Michael Harris's 'LNER Carriages' and there is passing reference to triplets in Chapter 9 'Gresley Catering Vehicles' but none of the sketches seem to be of any triplet cars, but rather other types, none of which are articulated.

Certainly look forward to receiving any additional drawings you may have - my direct address is graeme.leary@xtra.co.nz

Happy New Year.

Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks for drawings sent to me Mike and Dave - will study when on to the Restaurant Triplet kit building.

However, another question pertaining to my portrayal of The Flying Scotsman regarding left and right sides of Brake Vans (which I think 65447 (Mike's) earlier post has probably answered but confirmation would be good). I have just received the Hornby Full Brake model (their R4530A) which has the adjoining ducket and 'guards' door on one side and placed further to one end (with no ducket on the opposite side). Assuming Hornby have produced the model correctly with just one ducket would the formation have been arranged (and as Mike says the Brake turned for each Up or Down trip) so the 'ducket' side was placed to always be on one side? If so would presume it was on the outside (nearside??) of expresses both 'Up' and "Down' on double or multi tracks to enable the guard to have a comparatively uninterrupted view ahead. This would also imply the ducket/guard's door side would be closest to the end of the rake - and where the FS name end/tail board would be placed. (Then again, it might have been arranged as per my earlier queries and drmditch's reply, like the compartments, be placed for the guard to have a 'view' over the North Sea!)

All this aside I will have to revise my idea of which date/s FS I am modelling as a check of Historic Carriage drawings show this Hornby model to be based on Diagram 113 which were built 1930, 1933 & 1934 meaning my planned late 1920s will have to be discarded. More research (and looking back over previous posts) to identify a 7 - 8 car FS set (the maximum my main station can accommodate) to portray but a lot more evidence seems to be available on the FS than my other bete noir, The West Riding Pullman, which I have now solved (I think!!!).

Graeme

[Dave]

Further to the posts and my post regarding which way round carriages
were placed in formations, by chance whilst looking for something different I
found these random examples.
4729N Sleeping car 1924 - North End (berths on coast side)
5273N Sleeping twin 1925 - North End (berths on coast side)
5520N 3rd Brake 1926 - North End (corridor on coast side)
7352N Composite - North End (corridor on coast side) which gives 1st at KingsX end.

[65447]

The Brake Van allocated to the Flying Scotsman Set 1 in 1928 was to Diagram 45, running number 177. This Diagram was one of the all-steel Cammell-Laird built Vans without any underframe trussing. These were allocated to East Coast usage from 1928 and remained as such until the late 1930s.

The side the ducket (if fitted) was placed would be irrelevant since the Brake Van was for parcels and luggage only and detached at York according to the 1930 carriage workings.

The first 5 Diagram 113 Brake Vans built appeared during 1929 and allocated to the GN Section, running numbers 4028, 4034, 4040, 4041, 4059. The GN Section was to supply the Brake Van for the FS working so one of these later in 1929 would be perfectly feasible.

However I recall that the Hornby model is of the Diagram 245 Brake Van on the welded angle truss underframe, otherwise similar in body details to the Diagram 113. Details for Diagram 245 together with a brief summary of the various 61' 6" Brake Van types are on this site here: https://www.lner.info/stock/npcs/lner.php

Reversion of the underframe trussing to the Queen Post type used under Diagrams 43 and 113 would be possible.

Also note the difference in the bogies; these would have been the GN 8' 0" wheelbase Fox Pattern, not the Gresley type at that time.

[JASd17]

Hi 65447,

I have sent a 'potential' reduction of the Down Flying Scotsman set for 1928 to Graeme via email.

I would like to ask the Forum, what they would suggest for a Flying Scotsman set circa summer 1928 with only a 7 or 8 carriage set? I am thinking of which Diagrams would be required?

Obviously, I am trying to get the essence of the formation whilst living with the modelling restraints necessary.

Any thoughts?

John

[john coffin]

Surely John the real problem is the need to have the restaurant set up in any formation of the Scotsman. With a triplet what else do you
leave out?

Paul

[65447]

The underlying problem here is that Graeme has, as we all did at on time or another, decided that he would like to model a particular location, train service(s) and/or period. The more one learns and the more details are uncovered the greater one's desire to attain increasing accuracy and fidelity in the representation. Then the brick wall arrives - locomotives are probably available but, save for certain generic periods - typically post 1951, there are only resemblances of the rolling stock available in RTR model form. I do not intend to infer or imply that those that are available are generally inaccurate, just not the correct ones for the intended purpose.

Let us take the East Coast Main Line in 1928, for which the only potential RTR rolling stock is from Hornby. None is of GN or NE or NB origin, whilst the Hornby Gresley vestibule carriages are all of compartment door stock built on the angle truss underframes with clipped-top buffers that did not appear for another 5 or more years and do not typically include the specific Diagrams or even representations needed for a particular East Coast train. The availability of new Ian Kirk kits is problematic to say the least whilst previously-owned kits, if suitable, are quite rare and hence typically expensive on the auction sites. Etched sides and kits are a challenge for those not happy with a soldering iron and the resin cast alternative has yet to reach maturity. The earlier Hornby models, available from sets and listed in the Railroad range, are too short. One limitation of the Hornby range is the total absence of First and Third Class Brake vehicles; however the Brake Composite is quite similar to a Locker Composite.

Does one attempt to butcher quite expensive RTR stock, pay out to have someone build exactly what you are after, or revert to the 1930s toy train era when the carriage type was determined solely by the livery it was decorated in, the name boards it carried and the locomotive that pulled it?

The 1928 Flying Scotsman was probably the most moving of all targets in terms of the composition of the formation. The actual vehicle numbers were specified in the composition of each of the several sets, including the two primary ones, the reliefs and the spares. The primary service included one of the pair of Hairdressing Saloons /Ladies Retiring Rooms (which 4 years later were further modified to include a Cocktail Bar) as well as a new Triplet Restaurant Car Set; carriages with lockers were typical to accommodate the substantial amounts of passenger luggage and the unusual all-steel Diagram 45 Brake Van as already mentioned above. Without delving into finite details it should be remembered that this was also a time when alternatives were being tried including different arrangements of window vents, drop main windows and so on.

The answer is that it was so much easier when 'David Adair' compiled 'Modeller's Guide to the LNER' - the expectations for accuracy have moved on substantially since then and in turn lead to a demand for even greater fidelity to specific and often individual prototypes.

Graeme is the only one in his scenario who can decide on the level of compromise he is willing to accept combined with the amount of modification he is willing to undertake. But there are two specific questions regarding the reduced formation:

The first is 'where is the model set?'. With a train comprising several portions including those dropped off part way at York and Newcastle, the further north from King's Cross the less complex the formation becomes;

The second is 'how much are you willing to modify?' If the answer is 'only where I have to' and bearing in mind that, if based on Hornby models, all of the angle trussing on the underframes and the clipped-top buffers should ideally be replaced with the Queen post and truss rod and oval buffer types, and the Triplet Set is mandatory, then one reduced option appears to be:

Leading Brake Third [from a Brake Composite] (Glasgow); Brake Composite in place of the Locker Composite (Perth); Third + Triplet Set (Edinburgh); Brake Composite in place of Locker Composite (Aberdeen) with the option of a Brake Van trailing.

But under Rule 1 it's up to Graeme...

[JASd17]

Marvellous 65447,

Just the sort of debate I was after. Thanks to Paul too.

I am thinking of a severely reduced non-stop formation. Therefore Glasgow and Perth portions are not required.

The restaurant triplet from 1928 is a must in my opinion. Obviously not available from Hornby.

I would offer a Corridor third (23 or 23A) and a Corridor first around the triplet set, with a diagram 45 BG for the Edinburgh section. The problem for me is how to solve the Aberdeen through carriages.

A simple BCK is the most obvious solution, if 7 carriages is the limit? How about a 2-carriage Aberdeen portion? I have suggested a Locker Composite and a Brake Third. This is not correct, but at least it has some East Coast 'feel' about the formation.

You may differ?

I do not question Rule One by 65447.

John

[john coffin]

Surely part of this is where on the road your layout is? Also at what time of the year.

The other question is to decide whether or not the coaches for North of Edinburgh were in use all the time.?

How many of us have 7 foot of layout space to run such a train anyway? That is without the loco too.

Paul

[Graeme Leary]

Bravo 65447 - that sums up the modeller's dilemma precisely if trying to be as accurate as possible (and especially the limitations of Hornby's rolling stock), very many thanks.

I have also had some great input and detailed suggestions for a reduced Flying Scotsman from John (jasD17) which he also outlined in his posting after yours. Acknowledging that I'm not completely sure of all the terminology and they may therefore be the same coaches, the only difference between your suggestions seems to be that you (65447) suggests Brake 3rd and Brake Composites (in place of Locker Composites and John suggests Locker Composite, a Corridor 3rd and Corridor 1st. The triplet and full brakes are 'common' to both your suggestions of course (and I have already 'butchered' 3 old R477's to use the underframes -reduced in length of course - for my 'sides only' Comet triplet kit, despite now realising there are some important differences, the first major project for 2018).

Before reading these forum postings later today (our time) I did (typically) rush into print to John detailing what I had changed so far from various RTR Hornby coaches (mainly older R477 and more recent R4332 Composites) to a list of numbers I'd picked up from various books and I'm pleased to have read that John had pointed out that East Coast stock had numbers all starting with 1 - which fortuitously so do all the coaches I've renumbered (as have a couple of R478s, the older Brake Composites). When John arises from his slumbers (it's 3.30am your time over here) I'm hoping he can confirm my replacement numbers will be 'acceptable' but the Brake 3rd & Brake Composites (65447)v. the Locker Composite and Corridor 1sr and 3rd (John) might cloud the issue still. But I now see that Rule No 1 is probably the most important to observe.

Thanks too Paul; my layout is not fully time correct as with the variety of locos and rolling stock I have there is something from the very earliest LNER days to nationalisation. I am fortunate in that the overall length of my main section is 4.7 metres long (is that about 16 feet?) and the main station is 2.2 metres long which comfortably takes an A1/3 or A4 with 7 coaches - 8 at a push.

Let the debate continue - it is very absorbing.

Graeme

[john coffin]

SO the problems of being in N. Z. are outweighed by the ability to have a grown up layout.?

How many sheep has your layout displaced??

The biggest problem really is that the manufacturers of RTR seem to ignore some of the realities of actual main line usage, and at least
we on the ECML have now access to Steve Bank's book about formations. Thus they make carriages which they think will sell because of
the volume made, rather than their actual prototypical usage.

As you say though, it is a good way to determine more prototype trains on models, and trying to make proper looking rakes.

good luck

Paul