Out of the Ordinary LNER Coaches

[Malcolm]

The first of a couple new historical topics with pictures. I thought these might provoke a bit of interest so I've decided to start a couple of new threads.
Two of the pictures are fairly obvious. The picture of the snowplough is:

22nd October 1928: Thomas Hornsby, Divisional General Manager of the London and North-Eastern Railway, showing Sir Murrough J Wilson the latest designs in railway snow ploughs at an exhibition of rolling stock at Darlington Station organised by the LNER for charity.

The Flying Scotsman photo is a very unusual photo:

20th May 1932: The words 'Flying Scotsman' painted on the carriage roof of the famous train to enable the pilot of an Imperial Airways, 42 seater 'Heracles' airliner to pick out the train during its journey. The train passengers were being linked by a Marconi aircraft wireless set in the train to enable them to talk to the plane passengers. (Photo by Topical Press Agency/Getty Images)

Malcolm

[brsince78]

On a slightly flippant note:- I think they should remove the tail lamp before ploughing any drifts!

[52D]

The incident with the Flying Scotsman and the airliner was photographed i dont know if it was a genuine photograph or if it was a composite i have a copy somewhere in my collection.
The aircraft and train were supposed to meet on the symbolic Border crossing of the Royal Border Bridge instead of some 3 miles further on at Lamberton toll. My late mother talked about the incident as her father a driver at Tweedmouth watched for the aircraft apparently it was one of the LNERs many publicity stunts. I will post the photo as soon as i can track it down.

[Malcolm]

Sorry 52D, beat you to it.
Malcolm

[60041]

Does anybody know where the photo above was taken? It does not look much like the Royal Border Bridge to me! I am sure that I once saw a picture of the train on the bridge with the plane above, but have no idea whether it was genuine or not; after seeing the above photo it would seem to suggest that it was not.

[52A]

Is that a river or a road on the right. It could be Offord but not sure.

Also Heracles did not accompany the train for all of the journey but when Captain Jones decided to give in I know not!

[richard]

I thought the HP42 / HP45s could out fly an A3 - although iirc their cruise speed could be almost halved according to the wind direction. The LNER didn't choose a day with a strong northerly wind, did they?

Richard

[52A]

Flying at that altitude with a head wind would certainley hinder performance and would also probably be bumpy.

[52A]

Further to my last...I have found a report stating that the plane caught up with the train at Grantham and followed it to Doncaster. So not Offord, possibly around Retford or Newark but the area is now probably a housing or industrial estate! Another mystery, who took the photo and how far did that plane accompany the train???

[Malcolm]

More for the aeroplane and the train:
To continue this interesting thread because my interest is now piqued, I found another photo (courtesy of Getty Images) showing the plane and the train at the Royal Border Bridge. Further searching turned up the following:

15 June, 1928: Imperial Airways’ Argosy G-EBLF City of Glasgow (Captain Gordon Olley) with 18 passengers, from Croydon to Edinburgh Turnhouse in a race with the London and North Eastern Railways’ Flying Scotsman. The Argosy made two refuelling stops and completed the journey about 15 minutes quicker than the train.
The event appeared to have been staged by Imperial Airways for its own objectives. The "race" started with breakfast at the Savoy and then the air passengers being taken to Croydon Airport and a select party for the non-stop Flying Scotsman from King's Cross. The Hawker Syddeley biplane was called City of Glasgow and the non-stop is believed to have been hauled by 2563 William Whitelaw. Both left at 10.00 on 15 June 1928. The day was perfect for flying, but the journey required stops to refuel: at Bircham Newton, near Kings Lynn and at Cramlington. It had been hoped for the two modes to keep in radio contact, but the pilot mistook the late Junior Scotsman for the non-stop and this enabled the Flying Scotsman to get to Waverley before the air passengers could make their way from Turnhouse.

Further searching produced a reference to an article:

The 'Imperial Times' is a quarterly booklet giving information on all aspects of the company and its aircraft.
Regular features include: News, Q and (I)A, Publications, Competition
Back issues are available to members at a cost of £4.00 each (UK postage free).
Specifically:

Imperial Times
Volume 1, Number 1
Plane versus train: "The Argosy and The Flying Scotsman."

Website at:
http://www.imperial-airways.com/Club_im ... mes_1.html

As for where the first photo I put up was taken, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe the above article can help, but it would be difficult for me to get a look at a copy here in Japan.

Malcolm

[richard]

So the picture of 'Heracles' (a HP45, not an AW Argosy) is of a different incident. Looking at pictures on the web, they look to be similar, although engine arrangement is different but you can't see this on the photo. However the HP42s and HP45s look like their top wing is significantly longer than their lower wing - so the photo of Heracles does look to be a HP45 and not the Argosy incident.

I thought I heard rumours of a HP42/45 new build project, but I couldn't see anything on the web. Fine aircraft.


Richard

[52A]

So there were two flights, one in 1928 and one in 1932.

Or did it take 4 years with a change of plane!!??

[Bryan]

Is there any detail on the chase aircraft that took the Air to Air photos?

[Malcolm]

Over lunchtime I decide to see if I could find more on this topic.
Yes, there were two flights:
15th June 1928 (the incident I found all the details over)
Photo at the Royal Border Bridge. Plane type: Argosy.
30th May 1932 (first and second photo I posted)
Plane type: HP 45.
The only genuine facts I can find about the 1932 incident are:
30 May: London-Edinburgh race by Imperial Airways’ Handley Page 45 G-AAXC Heracles (Captain O P Jones) and London and North Eastern Railways’ Flying Scotsman. During the race radio communication was used between the aircraft and the train.
The only other stuff I can find are odd snippets that seem to confirm 52A's findings:

Further to my last...I have found a report stating that the plane caught up with the train at Grantham and followed it to Doncaster. So not Offord, possibly around Retford or Newark

.
The only other thing I can find is that it seems Imperial Airways asked the LNER to paint the train name on the roof of the last carriage (to prevent steam obscuring it) so Captain Jones would not make the same mistake as Captain Olley had.
There must be more information somewhere, and as for who took the photo of the 1932 race, I can only suggest a search through Getty images records.
Never mind, it was fun searching and I enjoyed reading everyone's responses.

Malcolm.

[hq1hitchin]

Re the HP42 replica - the Club Imperial people were certainly planning to build one a few years ago and had sponsors etc- not sure if it has been a victim of the current economic climate but I was with some flying types last weekend who told me that new EU regs regarding cabin emergency lighting and so on have put paid to passenger trips in Dakotas flying out of Coventry as it would just be too much hassle to retrofit the old girls. Whether it would also mean the demise of the HP42 scheme as well, I do not know.