Locations to identify - new photos added.

[Wavey]

Response below from Allan Sibley of the Great Northern Society:

I must admit I wouldn't want to travel all the way between York and London in an NER four-wheeler! [/i]

Think I would have jumped ship at Doncaster! Interesting experience at 50-60 mph I would say. You would think passengers would go for the nice new clerestory carriages as a preference.

[jwealleans]

Looking at the roof vent/lamp layout, does it have an internal corridor? I wonder if it's a private party or excursion?

[john coffin]

I think the location is quite clearly shown, but the date is somewhat earlier I believe.

If you look at the bottom of the photo, there are a number of empty standard GNR coal/mineral wagons. but of particular interest are the first
three which have the old fashioned G Northern R livery whilst the fourth or so, has the later GN livery. Obviously it would take time to re letter all the wagons in stock, so there were quite a few years when the two would be around together. Good point for early modellers!

So I would suggest this is around the turn of the century, IE 1899-1901 and it is a Down Scotchman with some returning empty stock at the front.
It might also be an empty stock train, but why with a SIngle?

Paul

[billbedford]

Think I would have jumped ship at Doncaster! Interesting experience at 50-60 mph I would say. You would think passengers would go for the nice new clerestory carriages as a preference.

My grandfather used to tell a story of him going on a works outing from the Plant and expecting to get seat on one of the expresses only to find that him and his mate were herded in to a six-wheeled swinger on at the end of the train.

[MikeTrice]

There is a much larger version of the image here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... NR_544.jpg

[John Palmer]

I have been savouring the detail visible in that larger image for a few days.

Please correct me if I've got the layout of the tracks wrong, but I understand the train to be running on the Down Main, the Up Main being the next track nearer to the photographer.

A feature I find interesting is the nature of the permanent way itself. Both main lines are apparently laid in 30' panels, which I presume was 'state of the art' for the Great Northern at the date the picture was taken. However, one significant difference betwwen Up and Down lines (assuming I've got the layout right) is that the Down Main is laid with modern suspended joints whilst the Up line rail joints are located on distinctive joint chairs. I've tried to identify the chairs in question, and the closest I have come up with is shown in the drawing of a joint chair at http://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html#GNR_dwgs. The particular drawing in question is that for an 1887 82lb joint, but I'm not sure whether this represents the design of chair visible in the photograph - is there an expert on GNR permanent way who can comment?

One of the things that's noticeable about the GNR track drawings accessible at the Old Pway Info website is that in the last few decades of the 19th century the rails seem to have been progressively becoming heavier, starting at 80lbs in 1875 and increasing to 95/100lbs through 82 and 85lb intermediate stages. I find it interesting that the 82lb rail making use of the joint chair shown in the plan had come into use no later than 1887, and had been superseded by 85lb rail by 1892, but there is sound evidence that the photograph dates from no earlier than May 1897. Does this mean that the Up Main visible in the picture was still using 82lb rail, or were there other designs of joint chair for later, heavier section rail, and it is examples of these that we can see in this picture?

[Mickey]

Please correct me if I've got the layout of the tracks wrong, but I understand the train to be running on the Down Main, the Up Main being the next track nearer to the photographer.

Correct John the train is travelling along the Down Main line or Down Fast line?.

The feature I find interesting is the nature of the permanent way itself.

Wasn't there an accident on the GNR main line caused when the P.Way department inadvertently relayed worn out rail(s) in the fast line(s) at Little Bytham in 1897 causing a high-speed derailment of a express or was the accident caused by something else I can't remember exactly?.

I have been savouring the detail visible in that larger image for a few days.

Yes it is an interesting photograph John I presume those 12 wheelers were nice runners and gave a good ride?. From a signalling point of view it is a slight pity that the cameraman didn't manage to include all or part of Finsbury Park 5 s/box which would have been on the extreme left of the photograph but nevermind it's still a good photograph all the same.

Mickey

[john coffin]

John Palmer raises an interesting point, but is missing another one.

When Ivatt joined the GNR, it is stated that he walked the main line, armed with a pistol and then told the Chairman that had he known about
the state of the track he might not have joined the railway. After that the whole of the main line was changed over, but it would have been done sections at a time. Maybe first the up line, then the down, one of those things not actually mentioned in any of the published books that I have read so far.

Not sure if there is anything more at Kew, will try to check next time I am there. Maybe Mr Pike of this village knows some things too.

The railways did not close in those days like the modern ones to upgrade, so things would have been done on the basis of moving the older rail to the secondary parts of the railway and laying new, but obviously it would have meant two adjacent lines having potentially different track for a period.

Paul

[Mickey]

When Ivatt joined the GNR, it is stated that he walked the main line, armed with a pistol and then told the Chairman that had he known about the state of the track he might not have joined the railway.

Yes I remember reading that myself in O.S.Nock's book Great Northern Railway back in the early 1970s also I vaguely recall that O.S.Nock also said in the same book that the GNR main line was the best laid railway in the world with long sweeping curves although I can't recall in what era that Mr.Nock was referring to although I presume he was referring to the 1850s-1860s(?) so by the time of Stirling & Ivatt from the 1880s onwards the state of the p.way must have deteriorated I presume?.

Mickey

[john coffin]

Worth also remembering that for more than 40 years. the GNR was lauded for having the best riding and most comfortable carriages on British Railways.
Indeed, whilst the Midland was starting to build bogie carriages, it still had and ran some 3rds which had no windows. Yet the GNR always built rooved carriages.

Many of the complaints that we know now is from late Victorian times are from Ahrons, who I often feel was biased against the GNR.

We know that Stirling did not like bogie carriages, and wonder whether part of that was economics, ie he had been told the railway could not
afford new track, so he did not want to risk bogies until forced too. Hence the 8 wheeled rigids before the 45footers.

Paul

[Mickey]

As for the original photograph and what isn't seen (unfortunately) is at the extreme left of the photograph if the cameraman had taken the photograph a few seconds earlier was Finsbury Park 6 Up fast/Up slow/Up Goods no.1/Up Goods no.2 lines signal gantry that carried approximately 14 full-size somersault arms all with Finsbury Park 4 distant signals below the home signals.

It appears the above Finsbury Park 6 signal gantry was rarely photographed because I've only ever seen one photograph with it in the background with a Up steam hauled express approaching along the Up fast line being the main focus of the photographer.

Mickey

[john coffin]

You are right Mickey, we lack photos of many of the really important trackside accessories like big gantries, etc. Sometimes, you get access to a photo only to find that the background is so faded or out of focus that it is not very useful.

it is difficult to get good enough photos of tenders, or even bunkers of tank locos.

Paul

[Mickey]

You are right as well Paul but It was nobody's fault that nobody photographed locations that some of us would love to see and obviously photography in the early days of the last century was expensive.

When it comes to the GN main line in particular I am always interested to discover any previously unseen photographs of the route from Kings Cross northwards to at least Hitchin especially between the years 1890s-through to the early 1970s pre-electrification.

Mickey

[madgewildfire60135]

One from my collection which might be of interest . Original glass plate negative with location Oakleigh Park and date 1899 on the sleeve. GNR Loco No 544.

Simon

simonlathlane.zenfolio.com

[Mickey]

One from my collection which might be of interest . Original glass plate negative with location Oakleigh Park and date 1899 on the sleeve. GNR Loco No 544.

Yes it is Simon it's just to the south of Oakleigh Park station (about 9 miles north of Kings Cross). The train is running along the Up fast line and is fast approaching Oakleigh Park or Barnet tunnel. There appears to be quite a few photographs that were taken around Oakleigh Park station circa 1899/1900 that I have also seen myself in the past.

Mickey