USA smokeboxes & Casey Jones

[Mickey]

Does anyone know the reason why some USA steam locos use to have either a silver/grey smokebox while the rest of the loco may have been painted in a all over black livery while some other locos had a normal black smokebox with the rest of the loco being painted in a all over black livery?.

After watching the 1973 film called Emperor Of The North about a 7 or 8 times recently starring Lee Marvin & Ernest Borgnine the real 'star' of the film is a ordinary 2-8-2 tender loco (the loco is no.19 and quite possibly a freight only loco?) that sports an all over black livery including the smokebox thats in black. Loco no.19 is seen throughout the film hauling a small number of freight cars along with an oil tanker (next to the loco) and it's caboose at the end of the train plus also featured in the film in a few scenes are a couple of locos hauling passenger trains with both those locos having silver/grey smokeboxes along with the rest of there black livery so would I be correct in assuming that USA freight locos had black smokeboxes and USA passenger locos had silver/grey smokeboxes or was that just a coincidents in the film?.


Mickey

* * *Topic heading amended to included Casey Jones* * *

[Hatfield Shed]

It's simply corrosion protection. North American steam loco practise was well in advance of that in the UK in almost all respects, and the resulting heating of sheet steel smokeboxes would burn off paint with a will, faster then was typically seen here. Experiments with heat resisting paint formulations ( I believe containing aluminum, and originally developed for the aero industry) ensued; but of course corrosion still won, so 'cheaper black paint and let it rust' resumed sway.

[Mickey]

Thanks Hatfield Shed I appreciate that because i've always had a bit of an interest in American railroads especially there steam locos from the 1910s-1950s era and some of those steam locos were MONSTERS compared to 'our' locos.

Mickey

[Hatfield Shed]

The connection between the Doncaster wide firebox development and US steam engineering practise is well known; with the Doncaster designers under both Ivatt and Gresley using the proven successes in the US as models for what might be done within the much more constrained UK loading gauge and track strength. It's something of a shame that the natural development of the wide firebox type at Doncaster stalled at the 2-8-2; while both classes were clearly tractively most capable, neither was fully developed to iron out all the wrinkles.

Had that been done it is possible that Riddles might have designed the entire BR wide firebox fleet as a 2-8-2, a 6' wheel eight coupled Britannia. Everything suggests that would have been a very potent machine indeed, a single design of heavy mixed traffic machine for 'everything' on the main lines. (The 2-8-2 in the USA was equivalent to the utility 4-6-0 in the UK and immensely successful, the most common wheel arrangement at the end of steam in the USA; and proved equally successful in both France and Germany.)

[manna]

G'day Gents

We also had a class of loco's in South Aust. that had a silver smokebox front, the 500 class 4-8-4's. I know of no reason for the silver front, they were nicknamed 'Pale faces' https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _1953.jpeg

manna

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

The US painted some smokeboxes in graphite paint. This was because of it's better heat resistance than black and was especially prevalent on oil fired locos with their higher smoke box temperatures.

In the early days of oil firing on the Ffestiniog, Mountaineer had her smokebox painted with graphite paint until a suitable heat resistant black paint was found.

[Nova]

Does anyone know the reason why some USA steam locos use to have either a silver/grey smokebox while the rest of the loco may have been painted in a all over black livery while some other locos had a normal black smokebox with the rest of the loco being painted in a all over black livery?.

the silver paint, to my understanding, was essentially akin to etch primer mixed with aluminium powder. it stood up to heat better and helped to dissipate said heat. it was also applied to the fireboxes below the running board, as they were only clad above.


I know some fellow rail enthusiasts who live in the States so I'll ask them for clarification on the subject. (I have been trying to get one of them to join this forum for a while now, for one thing he lives in a town that Flying Scotsman passed through on its US tour)

[Mickey]

Thanks Nova although I suspect both Hatfield Shed & BB have answered my original question although I like Manna's observation that 'down under' in the land of Oz those locos were nicknamed pale faces.

Mickey

[SooLine2714]

The loco is no.19 and quite possibly a freight only loco?

No. 19 is indeed a freight hog, and she survives today as well. IIRC she is currently undergoing an overhaul.

Also, it wasn't really a "passenger vs freight" thing. As portrayed in the movie, No 19 is old, probably towards the end of her service life and only kept on the roster because the railroad can't afford a new loco. The silver was graphite mixed into paint, and was only applied because the smokebox was not jacketed. Some railroads combined the graphite with black pigment, so the loco was completely black.

[Mickey]

Thanks SooLine2714 I see someone else who's also seen the movie Emperor Of The North released in 1973 as well and starring Lee Marvin, Ernest Borgnine & Keith Carridine. One of my favourite all time movies without a doubt.

"A-no.1 to Portland on the 19" Lee Marvin to a hobo.
"But that's Shacks train!". Hobo to Lee Marvin.
"It's my train!". Lee Marvin.

Mickey

[SooLine2714]

Hey, kid, you got no class! Hit the bums, kid. Run like the devil. Get a tin can and take up mooching. Knock on back doors for a nickel. Tell them your story. Make 'em weep. You could have been a meat-eater, kid. But you didn't listen to me when I laid it down. Stay off the tracks. Forget it. Its a bum's world for a bum. You'll never be Emperor of the North Pole, kid. You had the juice, kid, but not the heart and they go together. You're all gas and no feel, and nobody can teach you that, not even A-No.1. So stay off the train, she'll throw you under for sure. Remember me for that. So long, kid.

[Mickey]

Yeah good one SooLine2714 Lee Marvin's shouted farewell of dialogue to Keith Carradine after throwing Carridine off the train into a water filled creek with the end film credits starting to roll.

All in all a really good movie from start to finish.

No.19 the locomotive a 2-8-2 has smallish driving wheels so I guess it was a freight loco plus the road it appeared to work over had several gradients through mountain passes.

Mickey

[SooLine2714]

Indeed it was. Oregon, Pacific & Eastern. Long gone shortline, had 18 miles of track. There is a "New" OP&E that operates a narrow gauge segment through a safari-park as well as a short standard gauge line. The one OP&E loco is a 44 tonner.

Also, I think you might like these screenshots I took in Train Sim.




I know it isn't a 2-8-2, but it was the closest loco I had.

[Mickey]

The legendary American railroad engineer (engine driver) Casey Jones and the American television series from 1957-58 was an enjoyable series to watch that I remember watching when I was a youngster back in the early 1960s on British telly.

Remembered lyrics from the television theme tune from memory of 55 years ago-

"There was fireman Wally and *Redrock to Casey Jn and the rest of the crew in a thrilling adventure that's a lot of fun when Casey takes the throttle for another run!."

"Casey Jones a steaming and a rolling Casey Jones you never have to guess cos when you hear the totting of the whistle it's Casey at the throttle of the Cannonball express!."

*Redrock was the Cannonball express train conductor.

Episodes are as follows-

1.Night Mail
2.The President's Train
3.Prison Train
4.Way Station
5.Spurline To Danger
6.Satan's Wail
7.The Old Timer
8.Death Rides The Tender
9.One Way Ticket
10.The Lost Train
11.The Gunslinger
12.Storm Warning
13.Iron Men
14.Girl In The Cab
15.A Bridge For Casey
16.Night Run
17.The Marauders
18.Black Box
19.The Trackwalker
20.Star Witness
21.The Dutch Clock
22.The Dark Rider
23.Dangerous Hours
24.The Treasure Of Sam Bass
25.Hard Luck Train
26.Lethal Journey
27.Honeymoon Express
28.The Fire Eater
29.Mrs.Casey Jones
30.Layover At Jamestown

"They don't make them like Casey Jones anymore."


Mickey

[Dave S]

The legendary American railroad engineer (engine driver) Casey Jones and the American television series from 1957-58 was an enjoyable series to watch that I remember watching when I was a youngster back in the early 1960s on British telly.

"They don't make them like Casey Jones anymore."

Mickey

There was a Casey Jones burger outlet on the concourse at Kings Cross in the 80's.....tried it once and still suffering