The S&C & Britannia locos

[Mickey]

A fairly interesting archive colour/b&w film shot in part during the winter of 1962/63 on the Settle & Carlisle line although the films soundtrack style commentary is a bit 'hard on the ears' but leaving that aside there is some interesting film footage to see in this approximately 50 minutes film.

Amongst some of the interesting film footage that is featured is in particular some nice b&w film footage filmed outside Dent Head s/box (Dent Head s/box was once located on the Down side of the double track main line beyond the north end of Blea Moor tunnel) on what appears to be a 'relaying job' with a ballast train standing on the Up line near the box with Single Line Working in force over the Down line between Dent and Dent Head s/boxes, anyway shortly after watching a P.Way gang 'laying in' some new prefab track sections with the aid of a railway crane a Black 5 approaches Dent Head s/box (along the wrong road) on a southbound freight. Another piece of film footage that I remember is when the 'main character' in the film 'strolls' passed Blea Moor s/box with a rucksack slung over his shoulder and continues to walk along the Up line (facing on coming traffic) towards Blea Moor tunnel mouth before disappearing into the tunnel and presumedly walking all 2,629 yards of it on a open road.

Also featured is some brief interior film footage of Ais Gill s/box plus a close up shot of Britannia no.70048 The Territorial Army 1908-1958 which I believe was one of the lesser well photographed Britannia locos.

Motive power featured is mainly some London Midland Region 'Peaks' and a number of ex-LMS & BR standard designs as would be expected on a Midland line in the early 1960s.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

I haven't seen the film, Mickey, but just out of interest what workings were the Peaks on? I thought the S&C was more-or-less 100% steam in the early sixties.

WTTs of that era show just one or two trains (fitted freights) to not make a water stop somewhere between Skipton and Carlise and as these are unbalanced workings I assumed they took water from the troughs at Garsdale.

Incidentally, if you have read the book Ganger, Guard and Signalman it tells what it was like to work in the tunnels on the line, although the alleged frequency of trains is a little imaginative.

John

[Mickey]

Hiya John, I would have to re-watch the film again to answer your question directly.

The film was apparently shot over a 4 year period that included the 1962/63 winter and to be honest I was alittle surprised myself to see the number of diesel hauled workings as well from that era. There are several shots of Midland 'Peaks' hauling express passenger trains and i'm fairly cetain there was also a Brush type 4 seen hauling an express as well although there was still a few steam hauled passenger workings filmed and one in particular that comes to mind was when the 'main character' in the film is seen standing 'cess side' quite close to the running line as a re-built Scot (I would have to re-watch the film again to be certain the loco was a re-built Scot cos I only watched the film once?) thunders passed him several yards away on a passing Down(?) express!!.

From a signalling point of view the film shot at Dent Head s/box I found personally interesting.

Mickey

[thesignalman]

Thanks Mickey. Don't watch it again specially for me!

I'm intrigued about the passenger services, as the Jubilees reigned supreme on those workings right up to 1967 - I remember them well. In the WTTs I have here (1961-2) almost all trains stopped at Skipton, Hellifield and Appleby and were booked water at Hellifield and Appleby on the Down and Appleby and Skipton on the Up. The one exception was the Up Thames-Clyde which was non-stop Carlisle to Leeds and must have taken water at troughs somewhere, probably Garsdale, but as I said I don't think it would have been diesel then as I can't find a corresponding Down working that didn't take water. But WTTs are always full of puzzles!

Such a shame the LMS forum has pegged out, I'm sure the answer would be there.

John

[kudu]

...I'm intrigued about the passenger services, as the Jubilees reigned supreme on those workings right up to 1967 - I remember them well...

John

But in the early sixties at least, Holbeck had some Royal Scots. Unlike their Jubilees, these never worked south regularly (not as far as St Pancras, anyway) and surely would have taken expresses like the Thames-Clyde on to Carlisle. Did they not keep these workings until the end of steam?

Kudu

[1H was 2E]

Maybe my mind's playing tricks on me, but didn't the NE region use A3s North of Leeds in the early 60's, due to a shortage of LM XP locos?
And there was the slidebar (?) defect with a Britannia that caused a side swipe accident, suggesting that they were used at times, too.
Only remember the Thames Clyde as being a boring diesel in 1961 & on (passing Wellingborough) but with the reversal at Leeds (I think it went via Melton, avoiding another reversal at Nottingham) that may not prove the point.

[harvester]

From memory 1960/61 and early 62 Holbecks A3s worked north supported on occasion by Neville Hills, Book Law , Fairway, Trigo ect. Also sharing the Thames Clyde and Waveley with Peaks.

[Mickey]

Right I had another look at this dvd/film called The Long Drag this morning and first of all the end credits say 1963 so I presume that the film was shot over the preceding 4 years starting in 1959 plus obviously it was edited by the film maker as well.

Locos featured are-

About 9 or 10 Midland 'Peaks' are seen hauling express passenger services mainly on the Settle Junction-Ais Gill length that included The Thames-Clyde Express but there was also some film footage of 'Peaks' shot at Carlisle station as well plus there was a close up of numbers D153 & D165.

Midland 'Peak' D165 was seen at Horton-in-Ribblesdale station on a passenger service hauling a rake of B.R.Mk1s during the snowy winter of 1962/63.

Several Black 5s are seen on passenger & freight workings at various locations along the Settle Junction-Ais Gill length.

Maybe a 8F 2-8-0 was seen crossing Dandry Mire viaduct on a Up freight but it's wheels and running gear was hidden so it mite have been a Black 5?.

A Jubilee is since on a Up southbound express passing through Horton-In-Ribblesdale station.

A Midland 3F 0-6-0 is seen with a brake van south of Horton-in-Ribblesdale station.

2 or 3 Britannias are seen on passenger services at various locations between Appleby & Carlisle.

A BR standard 4 2-6-0 is seen running tender first on a passenger working during the snowy winter of 1962/63.

A BR standard 2-6-4 tank with a brake van is seen travelling south just south of Blea Moor s/box during the snowy winter of 1962/63.

A stanier 2-6-0 mogul is seen running light engine at some location along the S&C?.

***I was wrong in stating that I saw a re-built Scot cos on second viewing of the dvd in fact it turned out to be a Black 5 instead.***

Mickey

[kudu]

Maybe my mind's playing tricks on me, but didn't the NE region use A3s North of Leeds in the early 60's, due to a shortage of LM XP locos?
And there was the slidebar (?) defect with a Britannia that caused a side swipe accident, suggesting that they were used at times, too.
Only remember the Thames Clyde as being a boring diesel in 1961 & on (passing Wellingborough) but with the reversal at Leeds (I think it went via Melton, avoiding another reversal at Nottingham) that may not prove the point.

A3s did indeed work the S&C, but only for a brief period. I believe they were too long to use the sheds or turntable, which must have been an inconvenience. My Bolger volume ("BR steam Motive Power Depots" - LMR (sic)) lists 20 Jubilees and 5 Royal Scots among its allocation of 95 in 1950, and 18 Jubilees, 5 Scots and 3 Britannias among a total of 81 in 1959. By 1965 it still had 40 steam, including 10 Jubilees but no Scots or Britannias. The A3s had come and gone between the latter two dates. Anyway, my point was that the Scots were I believe confined to the S&C and were never seen at St Pancras, where it was all Jubilees, sometimes piloted by a 4-4-0.

Kudu

[harvester]

I believe the A3s were definitely too long for the turntables in Holbecks roundhouse

[1H was 2E]

Never sometimes happens, Kudu. Can still remember 46145 (55A) The Duke of Wellington's Regt. (West Riding) at Wellingborough on a down stopper early-mid 1961. But the reason I remember it was because it was so rare.
The engine change from diesel to Jubilee on down trains in 1966-ish was made outside Holbeck shed, providing the DAA*s of the time an opportunity to board the train, achieving the dual objective of avoiding both any diesel haulage and ticket examination. I recall one lady innocently saying to her husband "BR must generate a lot of revenue from these spotters going from Leeds to Carlisle and back"

* DAA was a perjorative term of the day for those who took steam haulage just a little bit too seriously. It was an acronym, which could be bowdlerised to Daft As err Anything...

[Mickey]

An interior colour sequence shot inside Settle Junction s/box is seen near the start of the film and features the signalman a man of about 60-65 years old pulling off for a Morecambe bound steam hauled express train and then after the passing of said express the same signalman is seen putting back 'the boards' behind the express and re-setting the junction points levers and associated FPL (Facing Point Lock) lever for the Carlisle road, of minor interest is all the levers in the lever frame have the white plastic lever handle covers.

Mickey

[Mickey]

For LNER fan's there is a brief shot of a green livered A4 either no.60023 Golden Eagle or no.60028 Walter K. Whigham (I would have to watch it again to findout for certain plus the light wasn't to good?) seen hauling an express passenger train somewhere over the S&C included in this film.

Mickey

[harvester]

Holbecks Royal Scots left Leeds in very early 1962 for other West Riding sheds. Low Moor receiving 2 or 3. But by then all the Calder Valley passenger workings were diesel, leaving only excursion work. They were soon stored at Farnley shed and then a one way trip to Crewe.

[thesignalman]

Thanks for going to the trouble to re-view and write all that up, Mickey. Its a line I have known quite well over the years.

I was wrong of course to say the "Jubilees reigned supreme" to 1967 - what I was trying to say was that steam reigned supreme, finishing with Jubilees because I did know types varied over the years. I heard of the A3s and the Scots but never saw them. I do remember the Brits - there were three at Holbeck (all "Firth of this, that and the other", from memory) and their popular working was the Waverley in both directions (they passed near Hellifield if on time) which was a heavier train than the Thames-Clyde. Occasionally you would see a double-headed Black 5 in lieu. Thanks to everybody else for their input on motive power too.

I expect that was indeed an 8F you saw in the film, there were plenty around on the slower freights. I also saw the odd Austerity (often on one of the Long Megs before the 9Fs took over) and Standard 5s mixed in with the Black 5s on the faster work. It was a fascinating piece of railway right up to the end of steam because you could spend a day there and not see a diesel.

My preferred haunts were Grisburn Ballast Sidings and Crosby Garrett - at both the Up trains would be working slow and hard. The Long Megs seemed the slowest of all, and when you look at the WTT their schedules were very slack indeed but the loaded ones were limited to 25mph (I think) anyway. Not that I saw any going that fast on the uphill - more like 10-15 mph!

John