Computer Coloured Monochrome

[2392]

Whilst I thoroughly enjoy the selection of colourised photos that have been shown here. One thing always makes me smile and this isn't meant to be critical are the coloured photos of black engines. After all even in black and white they were black! Though of course you get to see the greater picture with the landscape/background and rolling stock in colour.

[Darwin4975]

Re- black engines seen in colour, I agree with 2392. They were indeed black and that is how they should be shown -so long as they are in ex-works and unsteamed condition.
Earlier I showed a B16 at Darlington in just such a state -fresh out of Works and still waiting for a fire to be lit.

....But that is not a typical situation.
Recalling many other black engines I saw in the 50s and 60s, after a few days use in traffic it was very different. Oil and dirt combine to give a decidedly brown mixture which can become even more noticeable later if rust becomes a factor. In general I think it's true to say the vast majority of black engines in BR days never saw any attention from cleaners and so will very quickly have lost the pristine ex-works appearance.

This is the reason why I give a light 'wash' of a brown shade to black parts, as that really shows them as I remember.
Here's a group of typical examples at Thornton in the 1950s. A picture of multilayered grime over paint.

[StevieG]

Location? Let's try the up main just south of Dixon's Hill Rd. bridge, Welham Green.

Stevie, Mickey, HQ1, whaddya think?

Haven't yet thought of a better guess as to the location, folks.

[Mickey]

Location? Let's try the up main just south of Dixon's Hill Rd. bridge, Welham Green.

Stevie, Mickey, HQ1, whaddya think?

I think your right giner it's Welham Green although from an earlier era the 1870s about 45-50 years earlier than the picture was taken I think the location was called 'Bell Bar' just south of Marshmoor?.

Mickey

[giner]

Bell Bar. That's the name I was trying to think of. Thanks, Mickey.

[Mickey]

There was once a s/box at that location (Welham Green) called Bell Bar but it only lasted for about 10 years mainly during the 10 years of the 1870s before being closed and knocked a faded picture exists of the box in the book An Illustrated History of Great Northern Railway Signalling by Michael A. Vanns. First published in 2007.

Mickey

[StevieG]

There was once a s/box at that location (Welham Green) called Bell Bar but it only lasted for about 10 years mainly during the 10 years of the 1870s before being closed and knocked a faded picture exists of the box in the book An Illustrated History of Great Northern Railway Signalling by Michael A. Vanns. First published in 2007.

Mickey

I understand that Bell Bar box was something like a couple of hundred yards south of the present day Welham Green station Mickey, close to 'Skimpans bridge' (AFAIK, WG was not previously a named railway location), being, conveniently for length of block sections purposes, approx. halfway between Red Hall and Hawkshead boxes (there was no Marshmoor block post then [ though I believe there may then have been a level crossing a little north of the later M box site ] ).

[Darwin4975]

I'm glad we've settled that question. I've listed the C1 image as being taken at Welham Green. Thanks to all who supplied information.

Continuing with the subject of black engines, here's one taken at Wakefield in September 1958. A special, but I have no details. Not much colour here but it illustrates nicely how even a small amount of colour registers in the brain that this is a colour picture rather than b/w. Smoke and steam in the sky made this one worth doing.

[StevieG]

" I'm glad we've settled that question. I've listed the C1 image as being taken at Welham Green. Thanks to all who supplied information. .... "

Probably a rather minor point only Darwin4975, but to those who might have only a steam-era BR / pre-grouping or even earlier interest (before the 1980s etc. new station/re-openings period), and may not like searching for lesser location names by consulting comprehensive mapping, large scale road atlases etc., "Welham Green" may not be helpful.
Whereas the name Marshmoor must have been a recognisable railway name for around 80+ years (during which there was no station here), and the signal box of that name was barely 100 yards north of the present-day Welham Green station with the Marshmoor name even living on post the mid-1970s resignalling in the form of a ground frame to maintain a few further years' access to the sidings.

So might you want to consider somehow including the 'Marshmoor' name in the photo's caption?

[Albergman]

Hello again

Just re-discovered this thread after a couple of years absence and glad to see you are still "at it". I've just finished viewing everything from day 1 and thoroughly enjoyed your work all over again.

Recently someone commented that they particularly enjoyed seeing black engines here and I totally agree. In fact, I'd dare to say your best images for me are almost always the black engines ... and I'll tell you why.

After not seeing these pictures for a couple of years and now looking at every one of them again I have the same feeling again that I had before ... the coloured engines just stand out too boldly. I believe the term I'm looking for is over-saturated. It's a very subjective thing I know but I find it (slightly) jarring when I see the depth of colour in an otherwise perfectly toned image. Whenever a black engine is the subject the entire image is perfect.

I feel bad coming in with a negative comment after a long absence and after you've been doing this for so long but you've always been open to viewers' opinions. Since nobody else has touched on this I expect I'm in a minority (or even alone!!) but I wanted to run it by you and see if anyone else agrees.

Despite all the above I still greatly admire your work as do many others.

Cheers and Seasons Greetings.

Frank

PS I scratch build LNER locomotives so someday I should give you a crack at criticizing MY efforts!! Fair do's.

[Darwin4975]

Constructive comments are always welcome. The visiting grandchildren are (for now) asleep so I can provide a reply:

The objective every time is to produce something as close as possible to what the photographer may have been seeing in the viewfinder but this will always be subjective. My opinion is just one of a multitude but it's all I can offer, and even it may vary from day to day. I sometimes go back to pictures I have considered finished and feel the need to do some 'tweaking'. To add to the problem the colours and intensities can appear slightly different depending on which computer is in use. For this reason I have a particular desktop computer which I trust and rely upon for finishing off and making any adjustments to all images.

When assessing suitability, most negatives don't even get a look-in. Possibly 1 in 200 would be given consideration. Most are non-starters for a large variety of reasons. Many are rejected because they are not sharp or interesting enough. Some are quite impossible -I've mentioned before the 'white bufferbeam' problem in a b/w photograph, but clean engines are far easier than dirty ones because for them dirt doesn't have to be created. For this reason ex-works examples are a natural choice. Believe it or not, the negative sets its own limits more than one might expect. If an engine appears bright and colourful it may actually have been like that. The test of over-saturation for me is to look at the whole picture. If every part of it is very heavily coloured, yes the colour may well be over done -but remember that when the sun is shining everything does tend to look brighter and more colourful.

Here is a green Director at Eastfield in 1948, one of the few given LNER livery by BR. The cabside numbers reflected so much light in this photograph that they had very few pixels at all and appear almost white (an example of the negative settings its limits)

Now here is the same image which has had an overall reduction in saturation.

Personally I prefer the brighter version because I remember engines straight out of the paint shop looking dazzling in the sunshine. Maybe others will like the less saturated version, but for me it seems as if the sun has disappeared behind a thin cloud. It's all a matter of opinion.

I'm glad to say that my work has begun to appear on magazine front covers as well as inside, so it appears that some degree of acceptance is beginning to emerge on the part of publishers. It's a pity that only LNER related material can be shown in this forum as there is plenty more available from the others of the Big Four. I am currently working on some superb HR, CR and LMS b/w material which has been kindly supplied for this purpose by the NRM.

[Albergman]

Thanks for the reply and for taking my comments so graciously ... I've been feeling bad ever since I submitted it!

There's no question you are doing a marvelous job and I'm really happy for you that you are finding wider success.

As you surmised I'll be in the group (or maybe alone) which does prefer that "less" saturated image. Maybe it is a monitor issue and you no doubt have one that's calibrated and/or even better quality than mine.

I'll be a fan of your work for as long as you keep showing it here.

Thanks again.

Frank

[Darwin4975]

Another black engine.
On my visits to Doncaster in the 1950s, J6s were a frequent choice for station pilot duties and invariably filthy. I doubt whether any J6 ever saw a cleaners rag during its days of BR ownership, so clean examples would be rare birds observed only when fresh from the Plant.
Here is 64178 after its final overhaul, ex-works from Doncaster on 8th May 1957 -this picture was probably taken on 9th/10th May 1957, at home shed Grantham.

Already the streaks of dirty hard water have started to trickle down the smokebox which will soon be covered with a mass of scale. The all-important foreground is razor sharp which allows detail to be seen very clearly. Unfortunately even though it's not a bright sunny day the red bufferbeam has reacted so strongly with the panchromatic film that there are fewer pixels present than I would have liked but at least this is a bufferbeam that one can guarantee is devoid of dirt.

The J52 in the rear contrasts nicely and has been given a light brown wash to bring out the dirt. (No brown on the boiler of the J6 in fact a very light dusting of dark blue as any blue in the sky would reflect.) The picture shows clearly that almost everything was painted black including the coupling rods, boiler fitments and pipes. Fortunately the works plate was left unpainted and may even have received a rub with brasso. The driver on the footplate adds to the scene as well as the named B1 in the background.


64178 saw just under 3 more years service but will certainly have looked very different on the day of her withdrawal in early 1960.

[61070]

This is a superb picture beautifully and skilfully coloured, and a lovely crop of the man on the footplate too - but it's not at Grantham. The coaling plant there didn't have a road underneath - only at the side. The left background isn't 'right' ether - there would be no building in view. There's a view of the Grantham plant here from which you'll see it's different in several details: http://www.tracksthroughgrantham.uk/rai ... -the-loco/ (scroll about 1/3 of the way down the page).

Sorry, I can't offer any alternative suggestion. New England's coaler had a similar central wooden platform with ramps, but I'm not familiar with its detail or what would be in the background there from the other direction to this: http://www.peterboroughimages.co.uk/blo ... 4-1962.jpg

[61070]

Looking this evening at the photograph taken at Doncaster shed published in Great Northern Railway Engine Sheds Vol.1, facing page 1, I'd say 64178 is at Doncaster. There are a few additional poles around in your photo, because of the upgrade to electric lighting from gas, but the track layout is identical and the buildings on the left are visible too. Hope this helps.