Further library research has found H.C.Casserly, 'LNER Steam' page 60, picture near Quainton Road showing a loaded cattle wagon as a tail load on a single-coach autotrain, dated 8th April 1933.
The vehicle number is not readable, but it does appear to have two roof strips, as presented on the Oxford model!
It's also a nice picture. Ex GE F7 locomotive and exGC autotrain coach (?).
Also (added after morning coffee) K.Hoole, 'North Eastern Branch Line Termini', page 90, cattle wagon as leading vehicle in passenger train awaiting departure at Middleton-in-Teesdale dated October 1933. The wagon may be loaded, and does (just) appear to show a roof strip.
Also a nice picture. ExNER coaches, LNER build cattle wagon, and exGNR D3. (For those who like such things!)
There may also be a couple of cattle wagons in the dock behind the train.
If this picture has been published anywhere else perhaps the detail might be clearer?
Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Looking carefully at the cattle wagon shots in Tatlow V4b, 150969 (page 291) shows just a hint of a roof strip at the RH end; 150732 (page 292) clearly has two as per the drawing on page 293; 196295 (page 295) also has a hint at the RH end. These are all in LNER days.
I've also found a photo of a cattle special dated 18th September 1950 taken at Duns in the Scottish borders. Most appear to be LMS D1661 and the BR follow on diagram, but second from the camera is an ex-GW diagram W1.
I seem to be going through quite a lot of Evergreen strip - E196488 has 9 roof strips - maybe that's why it lasted until 1963.
I've also found a photo of a cattle special dated 18th September 1950 taken at Duns in the Scottish borders. Most appear to be LMS D1661 and the BR follow on diagram, but second from the camera is an ex-GW diagram W1.
I seem to be going through quite a lot of Evergreen strip - E196488 has 9 roof strips - maybe that's why it lasted until 1963.
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drmditch
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Yes, clearly the drawings in Tatlow do show two strips.
(Now I've studied them again)
Does anyone think and/or have evidence that more strips were added as the vehicles grew older, perhaps because the roof planks needed more re-inforcement?
That would explain the four strips and more in some of the BR photographs.
(Now I've studied them again)
Does anyone think and/or have evidence that more strips were added as the vehicles grew older, perhaps because the roof planks needed more re-inforcement?
That would explain the four strips and more in some of the BR photographs.
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60117 Bois Roussel
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
There was a time when you could recognise a Casserley picture instantly, and among the very best is the aforementioned one in his "LNER STEAM, 1923-1948" (Bradford Barton, 1977, p.60), of the Verney Junction-Quainton Road push & pull heading towards QR. By careful sizing and poring in the murk (I don’t have an original print) I can confirm that the cattle truck is a 1928 9ft WB with AVB, photographed just before the conversions started.Further library research has found H.C.Casserly, 'LNER Steam' page 60, picture near Quainton Road showing a loaded cattle wagon as a tail load on a single-coach autotrain, dated 8th April 1933.
As it happens, I have a second picture, a hard print which I'll be publishing, of this working with a cattle truck right next to the camera. Photographer and date, alas, unknown, but it's very sharp. In this case, the cattle truck was coupled in front of the loco to be towed.
And it was an LMS ex-LNWR 6T Medium, with manual brake and through pipe.
The ex-GCR autocoach is outside the remit (ahem) so I'll only say that there were three, another was used on the Banbury Branch, and there are/used to be zinc etched sides from Trevor Charlton. Colin Underwood, of HMRS fame, has built one in GCR livery complete with the Sacre 2-4-0T. OK, back to cattle trucks…
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60117 Bois Roussel
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Just a note to say that I have done further work on the distribution of cattle wagons in BR days and, as the sample size goes up, the rarity of ex-LNER types gets measured more accurately. More 10ft WB types have been identified and absence of the 9ft WB version (per the bogus Oxford Rail models in BR livery) remains.
The photos and numbers would swamp the forum so I have added it to the topic on my w/s. A really fine picture shows two lines of cattle wagons, 36 altogether, alongside Banbury cattle market in the early 1950s. http://www.steve-banks.org
The photos and numbers would swamp the forum so I have added it to the topic on my w/s. A really fine picture shows two lines of cattle wagons, 36 altogether, alongside Banbury cattle market in the early 1950s. http://www.steve-banks.org
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Looking at the Steve Banks cattle wagon link, there is a photo of 9' WB AVB E137513 taken "at Tutbury in Nov-Dec 1954". The caption goes on to say "This rare survivor is buckled and appears to have been condemned which gives a good idea of when this design finally disappeared.60117 Bois Roussel wrote:Just a note to say that I have done further work on the distribution of cattle wagons in BR days and, as the sample size goes up, the rarity of ex-LNER types gets measured more accurately. More 10ft WB types have been identified and absence of the 9ft WB version (per the bogus Oxford Rail models in BR livery) remains.
The photos and numbers would swamp the forum so I have added it to the topic on my w/s. A really fine picture shows two lines of cattle wagons, 36 altogether, alongside Banbury cattle market in the early 1950s. http://www.steve-banks.org
I think that it is very unlikely that the wagon has been condemned, as it carries chalk markings :
9 (circled) 1 CALF BROOKS TUTBURY
This suggests to me that this 9'WB wagon was very much in active service in the mid-1950s.
Regards,
John Isherwood.
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60117 Bois Roussel
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Cheers, John, but there's some crossed wires here. This thread is about the Oxford Rail model that is based in the 1927/28 design to D.39 with AVB and 9ft WB, all of which as far as is known were converted by the LNER to Conflats or to the 10ft WB. Several modellers have tackled the conversion to 10ft which is the only version known to have lasted into BR days. Scrapping dates are not known to have survived and the data tabulated by Peter Tatlow, even he admits is wonky, so I have been analysing the pictorial record.
The whole story - with three basic designs and conversions - is too complex for a forum and even on my w/s, where I have run to quite a few pages of text and illustrations, it’s hard to marshal the facts, which is why I am writing up the whole saga separately to publish using paper, ink and stuff…
The Tutbury picture does not show a D.39 wagon. It's an earlier design to D.26 with AVB and 9ft WB, which I touched on in the account and the caption explains. Here it is in full:
"This picture relates to the above [which shows a 1924 truck in a train] and shows the LNER 1924 design that was based on the GNR one, but with the WB reduced from 10ft to 9ft. It was built in a proportion of 2:1 manually braked & through piped: AVB. E137513 had been built with 9ft AVB and was still in that condition except for strengthening plates at the bottom of the diagonals. Its axleboxes had also been modernised with the LNER type. It was photographed at Tutbury in Nov-Dec 1954.
The surviving evidence is uneven and as far as can be ascertained, when it came to 1930s conversion of cattle trucks to Conflats or to 10ft AVB cattle trucks, focus fell on the more recently built 1927 design, whose construction had continued into 1930, and which led to its elimination in as-built condition. Regarding the older design of 1924, manually braked examples were converted to 10ft AVB, but some of the AVB ones, were left alone, presumably because they were older and not expected to last: the LNER fleet of cattle trucks was being reduced quite severely and only a third would remain come Nationalisation. This rare survivor is buckled and appears to have been condemned which gives a good idea of when this design finally disappeared. The next illustration develops the theme a little more. Photo: P.J. Garland."
Re your description as "very much in active service" I would draw attention to the fact that it looks empty, the chalk marking is old, the wagons are coupled but the hoses not connected, the damaged timberwork, and sag in the body. Its days were numbered.
I have since got more pictures as prints, slides and negatives, I have quite a heap now, showing what served in BR days and to date there are only two known pictures of the 1924 design: in 1948 and 1954.
A key point is that modellers have a habit of using a last-vehicle-scrapped date and declaring that the type can be run until then. Fine in theory but the reality is that it would have been invisible among many thousands of other designs. When I say that if you seek to represent the BR scene, and for every ex-LNER truck there should be 9 others, with the 1924 design, for every one there should be thousands of others. Each modeller makes a personal choice re the degree of realism that he seeks. I'm just trying to paint an accurate picture of how the railway actually looked over time.
The whole story - with three basic designs and conversions - is too complex for a forum and even on my w/s, where I have run to quite a few pages of text and illustrations, it’s hard to marshal the facts, which is why I am writing up the whole saga separately to publish using paper, ink and stuff…
The Tutbury picture does not show a D.39 wagon. It's an earlier design to D.26 with AVB and 9ft WB, which I touched on in the account and the caption explains. Here it is in full:
"This picture relates to the above [which shows a 1924 truck in a train] and shows the LNER 1924 design that was based on the GNR one, but with the WB reduced from 10ft to 9ft. It was built in a proportion of 2:1 manually braked & through piped: AVB. E137513 had been built with 9ft AVB and was still in that condition except for strengthening plates at the bottom of the diagonals. Its axleboxes had also been modernised with the LNER type. It was photographed at Tutbury in Nov-Dec 1954.
The surviving evidence is uneven and as far as can be ascertained, when it came to 1930s conversion of cattle trucks to Conflats or to 10ft AVB cattle trucks, focus fell on the more recently built 1927 design, whose construction had continued into 1930, and which led to its elimination in as-built condition. Regarding the older design of 1924, manually braked examples were converted to 10ft AVB, but some of the AVB ones, were left alone, presumably because they were older and not expected to last: the LNER fleet of cattle trucks was being reduced quite severely and only a third would remain come Nationalisation. This rare survivor is buckled and appears to have been condemned which gives a good idea of when this design finally disappeared. The next illustration develops the theme a little more. Photo: P.J. Garland."
Re your description as "very much in active service" I would draw attention to the fact that it looks empty, the chalk marking is old, the wagons are coupled but the hoses not connected, the damaged timberwork, and sag in the body. Its days were numbered.
I have since got more pictures as prints, slides and negatives, I have quite a heap now, showing what served in BR days and to date there are only two known pictures of the 1924 design: in 1948 and 1954.
A key point is that modellers have a habit of using a last-vehicle-scrapped date and declaring that the type can be run until then. Fine in theory but the reality is that it would have been invisible among many thousands of other designs. When I say that if you seek to represent the BR scene, and for every ex-LNER truck there should be 9 others, with the 1924 design, for every one there should be thousands of others. Each modeller makes a personal choice re the degree of realism that he seeks. I'm just trying to paint an accurate picture of how the railway actually looked over time.
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Steve,
I'm sorry that I mixed-up the subject of the discussion - it is, as you say, very complex.
If it had been withdrawn for scrapping I would expect to see the customary circled X marking. Even then, it would almost certainly have been marked for withdrawal there at Tutbury, given its traffic chalk marking.
I suspect, in fact, that it is empty, having just delivered the said calf to Mr. Brooks at Tutbury. Whether it went on to deliver further livestock elsewhere we shall probably never know.
It's not of consequence to this discussion, I concede, but it is clear that 9' WB ex-LNER cattle wagons were still being used in traffic in the mid 1950s, even in small numbers.
Regards,
John Isherwood.
I'm sorry that I mixed-up the subject of the discussion - it is, as you say, very complex.
However, I cannot agree with the above - on what basis do you say "... the chalk marking is old ... "? To my eye - when viewed in magnification, it is some of the sharpest chalk marking that I've ever seen ! The first rain would have smeared it.60117 Bois Roussel wrote: Re your description as "very much in active service" I would draw attention to the fact that it looks empty, , the wagons are coupled but the hoses not connected, the damaged timberwork, and sag in the body. Its days were numbered.
If it had been withdrawn for scrapping I would expect to see the customary circled X marking. Even then, it would almost certainly have been marked for withdrawal there at Tutbury, given its traffic chalk marking.
I suspect, in fact, that it is empty, having just delivered the said calf to Mr. Brooks at Tutbury. Whether it went on to deliver further livestock elsewhere we shall probably never know.
It's not of consequence to this discussion, I concede, but it is clear that 9' WB ex-LNER cattle wagons were still being used in traffic in the mid 1950s, even in small numbers.
Regards,
John Isherwood.
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60117 Bois Roussel
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
John, there seem to be three issues here:
- We agree that the circled figure is not a "Condemned" one and that the wagon is standing out of use, but I would argue that in its poor state it is close to being condemned, at a time when hardly any were left in service. And we're not talking about the mid-'50s: the evidence is sparse and only for 1948, 1954 which cannot be stretched into a wider period.
- To say "still being used even in small numbers" misses the point I made above. Numbers in isolation are just numbers - I was trying to say that the number of 1924-design survivors was insignificantly small. Like one in several thousand.
- And for the reasons given, is is not related to nor should be confused with the D.39 9ft design (the Oxford Rail model) which had ceased to be, it had expired and gone to meet its maker, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible...
- We agree that the circled figure is not a "Condemned" one and that the wagon is standing out of use, but I would argue that in its poor state it is close to being condemned, at a time when hardly any were left in service. And we're not talking about the mid-'50s: the evidence is sparse and only for 1948, 1954 which cannot be stretched into a wider period.
- To say "still being used even in small numbers" misses the point I made above. Numbers in isolation are just numbers - I was trying to say that the number of 1924-design survivors was insignificantly small. Like one in several thousand.
- And for the reasons given, is is not related to nor should be confused with the D.39 9ft design (the Oxford Rail model) which had ceased to be, it had expired and gone to meet its maker, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible...
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Steve,60117 Bois Roussel wrote:John, there seem to be three issues here:
- We agree that the circled figure is not a "Condemned" one and that the wagon is standing out of use, but I would argue that in its poor state it is close to being condemned, at a time when hardly any were left in service. And we're not talking about the mid-'50s: the evidence is sparse and only for 1948, 1954 which cannot be stretched into a wider period.
- To say "still being used even in small numbers" misses the point I made above. Numbers in isolation are just numbers - I was trying to say that the number of 1924-design survivors was insignificantly small. Like one in several thousand.
- And for the reasons given, is is not related to nor should be confused with the D.39 9ft design (the Oxford Rail model) which had ceased to be, it had expired and gone to meet its maker, rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible...
I have no wish to dispute anything that you have said.
I merely (and inappropriately) pointed out that here, in the closing days of 1954, we have a 9'WB ex-LNER cattle wagon which has seen very recent traffic use. For all we know, we may be seeing the very last 9'WB ex-LNER cattle wagon, immediately after its last traffic use.
I have one original Parkside ex-LNER cattle wagon in my stock, a 10'WB Dia.39 E150927; I accept that even this may be an anacronism by the late 1950s.
Regards,
John Isherwood.
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60117 Bois Roussel
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
This is getting confusing!I have one original Parkside ex-LNER cattle wagon in my stock, a 10'WB Dia.39 E150927; I accept that even this may be an anacronism by the late 1950s.
# The number you quote is for .................... D.39 - 9' AVB.
# The Parkside kits that I have bought were for D.40 - 9' manual brake.
Did you convert yours to 10' AVB, as the LNER is known to have done?
The 10' WB was not an anachronism in BR days, as this thread has pointed out. Photographs from BR days of individual wagons show:
- D.40 (1927) 9' manual brake converted to 10' AVB
- D.122 (1937) built with 10' AVB.
There are small differences in detail and in train pictures, you can't tell them apart. The last dated picture I have was taken in 1960. It's on my w/s here: http://steve-banks.org/modelling/256-lner-cattle-truck
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
The model was built way back in the mists of time !60117 Bois Roussel wrote:This is getting confusing!I have one original Parkside ex-LNER cattle wagon in my stock, a 10'WB Dia.39 E150927; I accept that even this may be an anacronism by the late 1950s.
# The number you quote is for .................... D.39 - 9' AVB.
# The Parkside kits that I have bought were for D.40 - 9' manual brake.
Did you convert yours to 10' AVB, as the LNER is known to have done?
The 10' WB was not an anachronism in BR days, as this thread has pointed out. Photographs from BR days of individual wagons show:
- D.40 (1927) 9' manual brake converted to 10' AVB
- D.122 (1937) built with 10' AVB.
There are small differences in detail and in train pictures, you can't tell them apart. The last dated picture I have was taken in 1960. It's on my w/s here: http://steve-banks.org/modelling/256-lner-cattle-truck
I will have to get it out - assuming my stock database records correctly which box it is in - and check exactly what it is. It will need renumbering at least.
Regards,
John Isherwood.
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60117 Bois Roussel
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Confusion galore! The kit from Parkside was revised recently from D.40 (9ft manually braked) to D.39 (9ft AVB). If buying via eBay, it helps to check because both are still around!
Regarding the LNER conversions of Diagrams 26, 39 and 40 to 10ft AVB, the info that Peter Tatlow quoted in 4B is known to be suspect so I have drawn up a table based on photographic evidence, along with running numbers and some detail variations in the strapping, for LNER and BR periods. There are two options whether choosing to model one of the 1930s conversions, or 1937 10ft AVB to D.122 - via a Parkside kit or correction of the Oxford Road model. http://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/25 ... ttle-truck
Regarding the LNER conversions of Diagrams 26, 39 and 40 to 10ft AVB, the info that Peter Tatlow quoted in 4B is known to be suspect so I have drawn up a table based on photographic evidence, along with running numbers and some detail variations in the strapping, for LNER and BR periods. There are two options whether choosing to model one of the 1930s conversions, or 1937 10ft AVB to D.122 - via a Parkside kit or correction of the Oxford Road model. http://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/25 ... ttle-truck
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Fascinating subject matter that just keeps giving.
The new table of converted wagons is a case in fact.
Splendid stuff
The new table of converted wagons is a case in fact.
Splendid stuff
Re: Oxford Rail LNER Cattle Wagon . Rebuilding guide.
Hi all Poor old Oxfordrail, once again their researchers have shown just how lacking their knowledge is !! I suppose they will pull the wool over the eyes of the majority of modellers just as they have before, but for those few who would like to know the truth I suggest they avoid the latest two iterations of the LNER cattle wagon. Both are lettered with the large NE but both have numbers in the series allocated to Diagram 122 although at least this time the numbers are actually correct for LNER cattle trucks. Unfortunately Dia 122 is for 10' wb wagons built from 1937 and not 9' wb as per the model.. They were never lettered with the large NE which was discontinued before they were built. One of them has even been expertly weathered with LIME WASH, a material which was outlawed 10 years before they were built !! In fact even the earlier 9' wb wagons were very unlikely to have been treated with this nasty white disinfectant as they were built after it was banned around 1927. It had not been used generally since about 1924 when a clear solution of carbolic disinfectant became widely available. This model also has some of the lettering transposed as did one of the earlier releases. Will they never learn ??