Post War Norfolk

[Old_Taoist]

Hello. Expert help appreciated as doing a "living diorama - N scale" to go with a novel based in Norfolk. Based around the Reepham, North Norwich to Coltishall area, it needs to be in late 40's to c.1950. As I'm getting very confused by various articles, can any one please let me know the following:
(1) Types of Loco used on country lines for hauling goods, 2-3 passenger coaches, late military equipment during/just after the war?
(1b) What colours around 1950 matt black, green?

(2) What types of coaches and goods rolling stock in that era, and what colours?

(3) Can I presume that all Station signs were Blue & White at that time? (Mainly 1947-50)

The proposed model is to be set between Reepham and Coltishall, "dipping" through a small town and village next to a heath. Some WWII Military use to/from secret locations, or moving equipment between bases or air strips, etc. Later period up to 1950 would be mainly local and farm freight plus a few passengers. Hope this description helps. Your knowledge and help greatly appreciated.

[Hatfield Shed]

It's a big subject, and to give a concise answer means a 'broad brush' treatment.

For the traffic proposed there are possibilities of any of past a dozen GER design locos, and a half dozen of the later LNER designs, working in your proposed area. The D16 4-4-0 and J15 / J17 / J39 0-6-0 on passenger and goods respectively perhaps the most likely, based on the Norwich allocation. There were also tank engines of which the N7 0-6-2T and V1 2-6-62T might be most likely at the proposed distance from Norwich. All in black, very grubby black mostly during the war and immediately after. Toward the end of your proposed period, the new B1 4-6-0s will appear in quantity, likely to be allocated to the heaviest jobs.

Coaches, a large number of GER design vehicles still in service, supplemented by the LNER designs of Gresley and Thompson. The LNER coach livery was varnished teak, but older coaches no longer fit to be seen varnished were painted a 'teak brown' and this would apply to many of the GER design vehicles. By 1950 a few of the coaches may have received BR's first livery of crimson and cream for gangwayed coaches, all over crimson for non-gangwayed.

Wagons will be dominated by three types of vehicle, and most of them grubby:
Mineral wagons mostly wood and some in steel. A very mixed picture as most of the wooden wagons were formerly privately owned and will now appear very shabby with patch repairs, newer wagons, especially wartime steel build, typically in light grey, some in red oxide.
General merchandise open wagons, mostly grey
General merchandise vans, mostly grey.

Any freight will have a guards van, in grey most likely, any of half a dozen GER and LNER group owned designs possible.

Wanna see some colour pictures to get a general feel? There's a very good title that fits the bill: 'The Big Four in Colour 1935 - 50'. You have to ignore the photographer's penchant for taking nice pictures of non-black locos. The steam loco was black 90%+ of the time.

[52D]

A little off the main body of the thread but relevant to it. Did S160s and WDs get North of Norwich obviously they were recorded at various points South re the wartime explosion at Soham.

[65447]

Hello. Expert help appreciated as doing a "living diorama - N scale" to go with a novel based in Norfolk. Based around the Reepham, North Norwich to Coltishall area, it needs to be in late 40's to c.1950. As I'm getting very confused by various articles, can any one please let me know the following:
(1) Types of Loco used on country lines for hauling goods, 2-3 passenger coaches, late military equipment during/just after the war?
(1b) What colours around 1950 matt black, green?

(2) What types of coaches and goods rolling stock in that era, and what colours?

(3) Can I presume that all Station signs were Blue & White at that time? (Mainly 1947-50)

The proposed model is to be set between Reepham and Coltishall, "dipping" through a small town and village next to a heath. Some WWII Military use to/from secret locations, or moving equipment between bases or air strips, etc. Later period up to 1950 would be mainly local and farm freight plus a few passengers. Hope this description helps. Your knowledge and help greatly appreciated.

The 'Round the World' lines as these were known were not built to nor did they carry much heavy traffic - they were subject to a 50 mph speed limit and there were only 6 passenger trains a day each way at the time in which you are interested.

I have found one photograph taken in 1950 where two such trains are passing, one is hauled by an E4 2-4-0 (62789) and both trains are made up from a few coaches of entirely pre-Grouping stock, including one ex-LNWR.

Locomotive colours would be plain or possibly lined black (passenger), most would still be in LNER wartime plain black and the most likely types would be D16, E4, J15 and J17.

Coaches would be a mixture of former GE, GN, possibly Midland stock (ex-M&GN) with some Gresley teak-panelled or possibly the odd Gresley pre-war steel-panelled non-gangwayed (non-vestibuled) types built for the GE Section. These would be in remnants of teak varnish or the teak brown paint; it is most unlikely that much stock would yet, if ever, achieve the first BR liveries of Crimson or Crimson & Cream. Wagons would all be pre-war types, supplemented by the 16T steel mineral wagon in its various guises.

Station signs would not yet be the BR blue, although some notice boards might have been LNER blue. There were several stations on the line that still had their nameboards (running-in boards) in GER style.

Since passenger services were withdrawn in September 1952 and at the same time goods services were withdrawn between Reepham and Foulsham, you could readily surmise that no investment was being made by BR.

Think pre-war with a hint of early BR and generally looking very dirty and uncared for and you will not go far wrong.

[Hatfield Shed]

The 'Round the World' lines as these were known were not built to nor did they carry much heavy traffic ...

That's priceless. When taking a quick look in the RCH Atlas to get an impression of the route, it was apparent that the GER had managed a train set oval North of Norwich...

[52D]

There was talk in preservation circles of a Norfolk Orbital Railway, I dont know if this idea is still kicking around.

[UpDistant]

The idea is still alive and kicking - link here http://www.norfolk-orbital-railway.co.uk/index.html. The section between Holt (North Norfolk Railway) and Melton Constable is not insurmountable, but the area around Fakenham towards both Melton and County School station may be more of a problem - Pensthorpe Natural Park and at Great Ryburgh spring to mind. Have a quick look on Google Earth. In most places the original trackbed is fairly easily followed.

[Old_Taoist]

Gentlemen. Thank you very much.
As I am new to this, your information is absolutely inspiring.
I was particularly confused by the two Loco colours, Green and Black; although 'black' is a pigment, not a colour (as my old Art College Tutor would have barked!) Quote: "Station signs would not yet be the BR blue, although some notice boards might have been LNER blue. There were several stations on the line that still had their name boards (running-in boards) in GER style.
" Still not clear about the signs; Maroon & cream for war-time?

Although the novel ('Angel: Soldiers, Spies and Saviours') is based in the 70's, around a fictitious town and village in mid-county, the model is of "Chalkhill Junction" and based 1940-1950; changeover period 1948 I believe; so at times a couple of "mixed" may not go astray. In the novel, the line would have passed from Mkt. Easton through Chalkhill into a partial and "secret" underground line below a heath (hence Chalk-hill, as most heathland grows over chalk). One exit would have continued to Coltishal Air Base, as a "feed" for military wares. This will be the "disused line" in the model. Other lines will "appear" (I hope) to come from the town of Reepham, via Market Easton, then through Chalkhill and on to Cromer, via all points NE and joining up with what would have been the real Norwich to Cromer line.

As I had an itch to build a Diorama, I thought this subject would both tie in and give me great pleasure in the use of some Union Mills Models hardware. As you may know, Mr Heard makes fine and robust models of many post and pre-war Loco's in all liveries. I would hate to get this wrong! As it is I've already bought some crimson Coaches as I though they would've been used 1940-50, but it now looks like I need Teak!

Perhaps I could split eras; e.g. WWII to 1946 and Post-War era 47-50+?

[65447]

Surely all colours derive from the pigments used?

Even if you split eras you will still not reach the BR Crimson & Cream period, but as it's all fictitiously inserted anyway rule 1 applies - it's your 'train set'!

[Hatfield Shed]

...I was particularly confused by the two Loco colours, Green and Black; although 'black' is a pigment, not a colour (as my old Art College Tutor would have barked!)...

The old railway companies produced locomotive black paints such as 'blackberry black' (LNWR) and 'invisible green' (I forget which company) among others. From pigment of course, and applied in many many coats with many many coats of varnish on top. If you are interested in this sort of thing, it is truly fascinating. The Midland Railway's 'full treatment' reputedly required more time painting its locos after general overhaul, than the mechanical repair time in workshops. The ensuing results were sometime described in terms more usually associated with the heights of rapture.

[Old_Taoist]

Surely all colours derive from the pigments used?

Even if you split eras you will still not reach the BR Crimson & Cream period, but as it's all fictitiously inserted anyway rule 1 applies - it's your 'train set'!

Ha ha! Yes, they are all pigments (mineral) or dyes (plant), for example. At GY Art College our old Painting and Decorating Master, Mr Buck, used to drill it into us that "Black and white are basic pigments. Colours derive from Yellow, Blue and Red!"

I agree, it is my model, but I want it to be as true to the era as possible.

[Old_Taoist]

...I was particularly confused by the two Loco colours, Green and Black; although 'black' is a pigment, not a colour (as my old Art College Tutor would have barked!)...

The old railway companies produced locomotive black paints such as 'blackberry black' (LNWR) and 'invisible green' (I forget which company) among others. From pigment of course, and applied in many many coats with many many coats of varnish on top. If you are interested in this sort of thing, it is truly fascinating. The Midland Railway's 'full treatment' reputedly required more time painting its locos after general overhaul, than the mechanical repair time in workshops. The ensuing results were sometime described in terms more usually associated with the heights of rapture.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Last time I went to NNR, the "40's weekend" I was blown away by the amazing renovations done on the lovely '8572' and the beautiful Gresley teak Coaches; down to pin striping and upholstery. Makes me delighted to see that there are indeed still excellent craftsmen around.

[Old_Taoist]

A little off the main body of the thread but relevant to it. Did S160s and WDs get North of Norwich obviously they were recorded at various points South re the wartime explosion at Soham.

Good question. I note that in the book 'Branch Lines Around CROMER' there are a couple, but surprisingly later, c.1958.

As my main theme will be 1940's, war time too, I wonder. Does anyone know?

[52D]

Old Taoist i have chosen to model the terminus of the Eyemouth branch which is just over the England Scotland border. A good choice for me as it was never signalled and worked by one engine in steam. The area around the station hardly changed from the beginning to 1965 so it gives me the chance to run several different eras with just a change of stock. Biggest loco recorded up to now has been a B1. Using rule No.1 i have decided on the pre 1909 trackplan and so im slowly progressing scenery to shoot a few pics for Manna of this parish in Australia.
Back to your thread, try to find out about the 8th Airforce who used a few locations on the line between Brandon and Thetford for bomb storeage.