Atlantic's works: Portable layout - Scenic details next

[Atlantic 3279]

Thanks Dave,

It's that old conundrum isn't it? The real things had all sorts of irregularities of shape and line which go largely un-noticed. As soon as a model exhibits an imperfection it just looks like bad building!

[mick b]

Hopefully with some matt/satin varnish on "wrinkles" they usually disappear.

Look at any shiny diesel, bus or anything with large "flat" areas, flat they are not !!

[Atlantic 3279]

Frustration last night: No real bother with the tender handrails, but then I discovered just how long it could take to solder up a toolbox from six different parts, some of them very fine and tricky to clean up, especially when the lower one of the two all-round beading strips with etched-in corner fold notches seemed to be just that fraction tight for size when I tried to fit it round the box. The more I struggled and tried to adjust things, the more over-loaded with solder the job became, and the more frequently the heat spread causing either rapid withdrawal of fingers or the bl**dy box falling to bits again....
A simple single casting for the box would have done nicely.
Then when I came to fit it to the shelf, which I had installed in the position that seemed to me to be correct according to instructions, the supplied diagram, and judgement from photos, I found the box to be wider (across its narrow dimension) than the available width of shelf. Cursing, and filing to create a couple of notched corners followed. The box is on now anyway, and won't be coming off!
I'd fitted the shelf for the toolbox with its front edge tucked under the shallow lip at the top of the front bulkhead, maybe that is what caused to lack of available space on the shelf? But is appeared to me that if I fitted the shelf above that lip it would look like a very crude, thick, add-on, making the toolbox sit rather high up, and if I filed it to butt-joint against the rear edge of the lip it would not be possibly to solder it as securely as it deserved - especially when I then wanted to solder the toolbox onto the shelf without seeing the shelf fall-off.

[john coffin]

Graeme, there is no such thing as a "simple" single piece casting for the toolbox, they are as many know quite complex to produce not least for the shrinkage.

One of the major problems with the GNR tenders that I have been studying since the production of the tender book, is the placement and
disposition of the tool boxes. None are shown on the GA's and so it is always a bit of guesswork as to how they look and are fixed.

You seem to be in a position where you may not be removing the "cusp" before fitting the bits together. That does not help with the burnt fingers however.

Paul

[Daddyman]

Sorry about your continued woes, Graeme.
I think I might have superglued the toolboxes on once you'd soldered them up into their box shape, given all the trouble they'd caused you. One trick that might help you when there's a danger that later soldering might unsolder earlier work is to do part of the work and leave it overnight. I don't know why this is, and I've never heard anyone mention it, but solder seems to ..."cure" - the best way I can think of to explain it. Time and again I get away with soldering something next to something a day or so after the first joint was made, when trying to do it all at once resulted in total collapse. There are limits to this - obviously, you can't dwell at 400 degrees near the earlier joint, but you will get away with a fair bit.

I'm currently working on a NER tender for a scratchbuilt D20, which involves soldering the coal rails on top of an edge where I've previously soldered the beading to the flare (yes, I made a mess of the Bradwell all-in-one beading and flare so have had to make my own flare and beading), and a day or so after the beading was put on, I'm able to get away with a surprising amount of dwelling.

[Atlantic 3279]

Interesting comments. I always make an effort of some sort to deal with cusps at the same time as the tabs, trying to produce neat square edges rather than the knife-edges left by the etching process. Maybe my judgement of when to stop in order to avoid under-size parts is a little too cautious at times, but with some slender parts there is precious little to hold while filing off the cusp and the danger of having too slim a final part or one that has been bent and weakened by the work.
Overnight "curing" of solder? Is it really happening, or is the slight corrosion caused by flux residue and atmospheric effects making it harder for heat to spread into older joints? In my case, any such over-night benefit would probably be accounted for by the builder calming down and starting to think more clearly by the start of the next day's work session....
All the various little columns and levers are now added to the front bulkhead, and I liked the suggested materials and general idea for the handbrake column, which I'm sure I'll use again, although I did the job slightly differently, leaving all the pieces at full length and therefore easy to hold until I had soldered the three key parts together. I do enough cursing when building, without trying to firstly cross-drill and then hold a 1mm long slice of 1/16th inch tubing and a 9mm long piece of 0.45mm wire in position on the end of a length of 0.7mm wire, while trying to apply flux and solder. The steps are on, the tank breather flanges too, the coal rails (perilously fragile to clean up) and the supplied rear lamp irons. Fitting the latter caused more incandescence on my part.
More later I hope. Extra day off today.....

[Atlantic 3279]

On a fairly trivial point of pedantry, which I won't be trying to address on the model since there's no time, as this is a Stirling tender should there really be rows of closely space small rivets all the way around each side sheet and the rear sheet?

Further, practical questions arise at this stage. They could turn out to daft ones, or very relevant ones, whose answers may or may not be known:

For the rectangular combined filler hatch and scoop dome, is there good evidence for the equally-divided hinged lid? The plan views in the renditions of R22 and R43 in the "big book", the only drawings depicting such a combined fitting, show unequal division of the lid. Unless such an arrangement would be incorrect for the Stirling tender I'm tempted to skip another round of fabrication and simply fit an appropriate resin casting that I happen to have.

The rear buffers depicted in the drawings included in the kit are the parallel socket type, which I have available and I'm happy to fit, but does anybody happen to have overwhelming evidence for the older conical socket type still being more common on these tenders in the 1930s?

[john coffin]

I will now spend hours studying the various Stirling tender photos I have, and see whether I can answer that properly ***********

One excuse might be that Malcolm originally designed it at a time when a couple of such tenders were still around, and may, I stress may,
have seen that and not thought back to earlier times.

Certainly on the inside spring tenders, there are many undressed rivets showing along the top under the soleplate, and I am pretty sure it
would have been similar on the later outside spring ones too.

I agree that often getting rid of the cusp can be a real PITA, but not sure how we overcome that problem without making the whole thing
look like it is too overscale. It is one of the ongoing problems for any potential kit designer.

Look forward to more photos. I do think that there is some validity in thinking that day old solder has kind of solidified and of course it has
cooled down making re heating it more difficult.

Paul

[drmditch]

If it's any help, I did put these pictures up last year:-
.... Stirling Tenders...

I appreciate that these are 'as restored'.

(If you want larger versions of the pictures, just PM me.)

[Atlantic 3279]

Some un-glamorous pictures of the tender after Wednesday's soldering battles, prior to proper cleaning up for further work:

[Atlantic 3279]

Looking somewhat tidier early this evening, prior to etch primer application, and after deciding that I had no time to mess about regarding the water-filler and scoop cover, hence the easy option of the resin casting.

It may already have been spotted in the above pictures, but after deciding that the unsupported rear corners of the coal rails were hopelessly vulnerable to distortion by no more that gentle normal handling, I decided to sacrifice strict authenticity and solder in a couple of wire corner posts to add support.

[john coffin]

Looking pretty good Graeme,
I think you are probably right about the coal rails, but it will be able to be hidden if you put coal all around.

Your resin water scoop looks pretty good too. Nice work all around I think.

Now help me get the instructions right into the future please

Paul

[Atlantic 3279]

Thank you. I'll do my best, if it helps.

After finding time to look at some pictures, I realize that my earlier question about visible rivets on the sidesheets is easy to answer. Stirling tenders they may be, but not one image I've seen showing what appears to be a class D or class C tender has rivets heads showing above soleplate level. I can't find an example with the fancy toolbox though. None I've seen have the reinforcing bands around the top and bottom edges of the four sides. The sides instead are universally plain, save for a handle on each end, suggesting that they were meant to be capable of being lifted off and perhaps taken to the job. Given their size, I bet this option wasn't popular! The hasp and staple fastening seems genuine enough. One picture I found showed a fairly rough wooden toolbox....

Fig.28 in the RCTS LNER locos book, part 5 is interesting too. I think it shows a class D tender with coal rails plated all the way back to the rear corners. Had I spotted it before adding my corner posts I might have just added more plating to strengthen the rear corners, assuming that is that both sides were the same. Given the loco in question, was the tender showing the legacy of R.O.D service too? Were the coal rails across the back plated too? Will we ever know?

There hasn't been much time for scrutiny yet, but I'm relieved that nobody has mentioned the number and the exact positions of the lamp irons. I didn't search for photographic evidence, but planned to fit five, GN style, yet destroyed too many as I struggled to fold, solder and fit them correctly, hence four will have to do. The very slight twist that I've managed to lock-in to the superstructure hasn't been spotted either - but I've given the game away now.

[ianwales]

Hi Graeme

Did you see my PM please?

Ian

[Atlantic 3279]

Sorry Ian, yes I did. and I marked it as important so the I would do something about it. A lot of good that did...

Can you send your e-mail address in a PM please as the list files are too big to attach to one of this forum's PMs.

It's still the pre-2014 version of the main list I'm afraid, with a basic supplement for later items. The J6s (or what remains) and the K2 (still several available) details are in another list/message that I e-mailed out to various people a while back. Did you get that and if not, do you want it? Some of it will be out of context (or even plain wrong) if you've not been in the J6 / K2 "loop" thus far, but it's the best I can provide at present.