Where the coal came from...

[drmditch]

After some posts in this and other forums, I thought it might be interesting to revive this thread.

Perhaps from memory or from reading people could provide references to the products of particular collieries being used at particular sheds at particular times. Obviously, individual experiences and views may differ!

Here is one to start.

Harry Friend in his 'Track Record' makes reference to 1947 and Wearmouth coal being used at Durham; 'the best coal in the world and very hot'.
However, coal used at South Dock, especially the South Hetton product was seen as 'large heavy and would undoubtedly scar up the fire.'

[Rlangham]

I think there is a lot more to research on this subject. In WW2 some coal continued to go south by sea, because a lot of the terminals, especially gas works and power stations in the south were set up for marine rather than rail transport. However, the dangers of coastal transport in both world wars must have caused much coal to be diverted to railway movement. In WW1 the supply of Welsh coal for RN ships meant special coal trains to the Humber ports as well as to Scotland. I have seen references to these but not those, surprisingly, which must have run to Harwich and/or Felixstowe.

Part of the reason for this could be the use of smaller, oil fired vessels (ie Destroyers and Scout Cruisers) at these locations, whereas for larger ships the first Battleship to use oil firing, the Queen Elizabeth class, was not introduced until 1915.

The story of the Jellicoe Specials alone is an interesting one, and the amount of route changes that took place during its time - the NER from 1916 handled some of the trains

I would also be interested to know more about the supply of coal from Durham/NER in general during WW1, my research into the NER during this period suggested a lot of it went by rail as the threat of German warships and especially U-boats meant the use of colliers was reduced.

Also trying to find out about the NE coal industry in general during WW1 - output, issues (manpower diluted as men joined the forces being the obvious one) but, as with a lot of things to do with the WW1 Home Front, there isn't much out there

[drmditch]

Slightly off-topic, but interesting anyway. Yes, the requirements for coal for HM Ships did reduce as more modern ships were produced with oil firing. Most of the Grand Fleet (including I think in 1918 the American 6th BS) remained coal fired. However, although the Harwich Force of 1914 (later re-titled 'Harwich Striking Force) consisted of modern light cruisers and destroyers, there were still a number of older vessels in service, which would have been designed for Welsh Coal. All the patrol craft up an down the east coast (older small cruisers and destroyers) and the older battleships and cruisers (some of which were based at Harwich as well as round the Thames estuary) would have needed coal. Perhaps as these were :- sunk/sent to the Dardanelles/de-commissioned - then the requirement may have reduced.

So, four old destroyers and two old cruisers were at Hartlepool in 1914/15. (There was also an old C Class submarine - but that probably didn't burn coal!) The destroyers loaded 140 tons each, and the cruisers presumably more. Assuming they had to coal every other week, (range was only about 300 miles), then that makes about 2000 tons a month. Presumably there were stockpiles, but even so that's quite a lot of welsh coal trucks in Hartlepool!

An interesting traffic!

[Postman Prat]

Off slightly at a tangent the K class submarines were steam driven, although they were oil fired

[jwealleans]

Quite a tangent into a dead end, since they frequently weren't watertight either.

[manna]

G'day Gents

How many tons of coal to a Battleship/Battlecruiser, and the Grand Fleet, had what ! 30, of those, even if each ship used a 1,000tons a week, that's impressive total, and that's not including all the small fry.

manna

And then there were all the Pre Dreadnought types still around.

[Pyewipe Junction]

What I would like to know is why the quality of coal declined from about WW I onwards.

Given that the UK sits on virtually inexhaustible reserves of coal of various types, why did good coal become difficult to source?

Why didn't the railway companies simply buy mines to ensure supplies?

[john coffin]

many of the most famous coal mines were actually owned by, or invested in by various important Railwaymen.
For instance Stephenson, Daniel Gooch, Haye Butterworth.

My understanding is that after the First War, the consolidation of the railway companies stopped them owning more of the coal companies, and indeed
were part, it has been suggested for the Coal Strike in 1926.

As for the quality of coal, it was not so much the quality rather the cost of producing it that impacted on the usage. After WW1 most ships no longer used coal, so the railway, and also home use were the major sources, these were both cost impacted, thus the cheapest coal was produced for all
the markets. It did not however stop the railway companies buying specific types for special services and stations. Certainly the ECML had special stacks for the premier trains.

Remember that even until the mid 1950's much coal was still being hand hewn not by big machines and it relied on men going ever further below the
earth. Had we had more open cast mines it might have been easier, but after Aberfan, that became ever more difficult.

Paul

[Mickey]

After recently watching a dvd about God's Wonderful Railway and the problems they had with there locos and 'poor steaming' apparently that all came about during the General strike of 1926 when the railway company couldn't get there hands on there normal supply of good quality Welsh coal and had to import Polish coal (a few lumps of coal in amongst the slack and coal dust) and then the GWR found that there 4-6-0 Stars & Castles wouldn't simmer at there normal 225lbs psi boiler pressure but were struggling to reach about 160lbs psi much to the disgust of many GWR loco crews.

Mickey

[Hatfield Shed]

What I would like to know is why the quality of coal declined from about WW I onwards.

Given that the UK sits on virtually inexhaustible reserves of coal of various types, why did good coal become difficult to source?...

Straightforwardly, the commercial extraction of coal saw the combinations of best quality and most easily recovered coal preferentially worked out. (The less sophisticated methods of earlier mining have led to some of the earlier shallow workings being quarried to recover the large proportion of good coal left in place.) But the day of seams of coal that outcropped at the surface and were 2 to 3 metres thick, and all of good quality, are over. Good coal can be had at depth, and in narrower seams, but the cost of recovery is much higher.

Amidst the bubbling row over fracking for gas/oil, the alternative of extracting the energy content in buried coal hasn't had much air time in the UK. There are methods for controlled combustion of the coal in situ to extract both thermal energy and volatiles, rather than physically hauling it up to the surface to do the same. Not least of its advantages is that 'pollutants' can all potentially be left 'down below' where they have always been and don't bother anyone!

[Mickey]

In actual fact I would still like to see coal back in general use as a house heating fuel again if it was possible to because I like coal or coke fires for heating purposes and I don't mind all the business of cleaning out a coal fire and getting rid of the ash from the ash pan and digging the clinker off the fire bars of the grate with the poker and then making up a new fire or going outside to the coal bunker and filling up a coal bucket full of coal again and opening and closing the damper and using the firing irons on the fire all topped off with that nice smell of coal smoke.

Mickey

[52D]

You have it down to a tee mickey, but have forgotten the pleasure of lying out on the fireside mat fighting the dog for best position, our Russel liked to get between me and the tiles round the fire but would soon shift if a wayward spark was ejected.

[Mickey]

You have it down to a tee mickey...

To right 52D and we're sitting on unlimited supplies of the stuff!!.

"Coal & bully beef thats wot made Britain great!!".

Mickey