West Riding Pullman Coach types, names and/or numbers

[Graeme Leary]

I had thought I had asked this question previously but cannot find having done so.
Can anyone give me definitive coach types, names and or numbers for Pullman coaches used when the West Riding Pullman was operating prior to becoming (as I understand) The Yorkshire Pullman.
I do have on authoritative advice that Kitchen 3rd Cars Nos 81 & 82; and Parlour 3rd Nos 83 & 84 and Brake 3rd 94 and 95 may have been used. Also from same source 'possibly' named Parlour 1st Eunice, Juana & Zena and Kitchen 1st Ione, Joan, Loraine and Evadne may also have been part of this express.
Graeme Leary

[Graeme Leary]

Further to this posting I was speaking to a very experienced modeller (and a North Eastern man to boot so he should know what he was talking about) who said that if he has any issues with the RTR model manufacturers it is that they produce so many 'composite' 1st/3rd coaches and not 1st and/or 3rd class (only). This came up as we were talking about LNER teak coaches (for use on Flying Scotsman express) and Pullmans (for West Riding Pullman) as he said either of these expresses would have more likely to have consisted of (as well as the Brake vans, possible Buffet cars etc) a high number of 3rd class (only) and a smaller number of 1st class (only) - which I interpreted to mean say 2 or 3 1st class and say 5 or 6 on a 10 coach express, the rest being Brakes and/or other types.
He also commented that 3rd class coaches only have numbers (and were not named) and the 1st class coaches the opposite.
Would any body be able to confirm or comment otherwise.
Many thanks.
Graeme Leary

[2512silverfox]

Traditionally Pullman 3rds had numbers and 1sts had names.

Remember however that when looking at main line stock as apposed to Pullmans, many LNER ML trains split during a journey into sometimes several portions which is why there was a larger than obvious number of compos and compo brakes, since each portion tended to be self contained.

[Hatfield Shed]

... if he has any issues with the RTR model manufacturers it is that they produce so many 'composite' 1st/3rd coaches and not 1st and/or 3rd class (only)...

He might have added that the notion of producing firsts in the same volume as thirds is also dubious, and produces easily observed results in the firsts still being available after the thirds have long sold out. The real amazement over RTR stock provision though must surely be that of Pullman cars, which were real rarities. Considering all the RTR gangwayed passenger vehicles available for operation in the BIg Four period, the largest group by far are the Pullman cars, to the extent that complete trains formed of correct vehicle types throughout are possible; but at least not a composite among those!

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks silverfox and Hatfield Shed (as your previously helpful replies to posts of mine). Supplementary question though; my interest right now is The Flying Scotsman (Express) and West Riding Pullman and would these 2 particular expresses have 'split' into several portions during their trips? I would have thought they would have completed their long distance runs 'untouched' with maybe some of the 'minor' (if that's the right word) expresses having portions 'dropped off'. If this is the case I'm planning to 'reclass' some of my 1st/3rd composites (both LNER Teak and Pullman) into all 1sts and all 3rds. Would this be a reasonable course of action?
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Further to earlier postings and replies to this topic (and apologies to those of you who have been keeping track of my postings under another topic 'West Riding Pullman Roof Colours' and may therefore be heartily fed up with all this) and bearing in mind comments about trains being 'split' and ratio of 1st and 3rd coaches on expresses I have settled on the following as the composition of my West Riding Pullman express:-

3rd Class Brake: Car No 94
3rd " Parlour: " " 83
3rd " " " " 84
*3rd " " Still to be renumbered, either Car No 75 or 76 *
3rd " Kitchen " " 81

1st Class Kitchen: 'Marcelle'
1st " " "Sybil'
1st " Parlour: Still to be renamed - either 'Juana', 'Zena' or 'Eunice'

* This originally described on Hornby box as '1st Class Parlour' but to keep 1st/3rd ratio more or less in balance, decided might be better reclassified as a 3rd Class. Would this be a reasonable assumption or if okay to keep 1st Class, would correct names to use be either 'Juana', 'Zena' or 'Eunice' (whichever left over from last on 1st Class list).

I haven't been able to find drawings for a closer look at any variations between 1st and 3rd class design in each coach type but am prepared to be 'out of line' on this (not so) minor discrepancy. Forgiveness please!

However, any further comments would be great (and particularly if above could be a 'reasonably' accurate composition during WRP's period of running?) and then I can complete renumbering/renaming and get new transfers well and truly sealed in place.

Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

I had honestly thought my last posting on this topic back in November would in fact be my LAST but another point has come up that someone may be able to confirm/clarify.

My learned (ex Yorkshire) colleague here commented that, to the best of his knowledge, Pullman Brakes were only 3rd class. Seemed reasonable to me judging what I had seen in various photos but then a closer look at Banks and Carter's tome on LNER Passenger Trains & Formations lists (p176) that, on the 1928 West Riding Pullman (this express my particular interest) there was a 1ST CLASS BRAKE and a 3rd Kitchen which were 'dropped' (is that the word?) at Halifax, the remaining 5 coaches carrying on to Newcastle. However, further study of this book (p219) lists only 2 Brake 1st's, Cambria and Catania and these were 12 wheelers (and confirmed in Anthony Ford's 'Pullman Profiles No 1 'The 12-Wheel Cars').

Pedantry being alive and well south of the Equator, I'd be pleased to hear anything at all on this (along with any comments on what was likely to be the construction of these particular West Riding Pullman coaches in 1928 - I'm inclined to think they were probably the 'matchwood' panelling but could they have been the all steel flush sided coaches then?)

Thank you in anticipation.
Graeme Leary

[teaky]

Correct. Matchwood panelled. The all-steel K-types were only introduced in 1928 and didn't make it into the by then renamed Yorkshire Pullman until 1938 and even then they made up less than half the train.

For the 12-wheel brakes you could rename/remodel Hornby's R4477.

[harvester]

The Pullman coaches for Halifax were worked forward from Bradford Exchange via the "Queensbury Lines" usually by one of Bowling sheds N1s. They remained over night at Halifax and formed the following mornings up back to Kings Cross.

[Graeme Leary]

Excellent Harvester and Teaky - many thanks for confirmation/clarification (now to track down a R4477!).
Graem

[JASd17]

The Halifax Brake First was an ex-GER type twelve-wheeler. The Hornby Brake Third is close, if you can find one, but not exact.

There is photographic evidence of a steel K type Kitchen third being used as an extra vehicle in the Halifax portion making 3 cars, when there was extra demand. Hornby do R4660 which would cover this precisely. That doesn't help with the normal 2-car portion, however.

John

[Graeme Leary]

This project has been like watching paint dry so hopefully last question.
Would the rear coach on the West Riding Pullman have carried the express name board (ie covering the gangway)? I have only ever seen a photo of rear coach of The Silver Jubilee with this so grateful for any clarification re WRP.
Graeme

[harvester]

Don't know about earlier but in BR days I've seen both the Yorkshire Pullman and Queen of Scots with named gangway end boards

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks Harvester - now that I've also heard from my usual Yorkshire source it (probably) did, I only have one problem to complete my West Riding Pullman; Fox Transfers, my usual supplier of this sort of detailing don't have WPR in their range of coach 'tailboards'. Hopefully enough LNER modellers may also plan to replicate this express so demand will have them adding it to their range!
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Apologies for returning to this topic which I thought I'd well and truly covered over the last few months. However, whilst recently in the UK I picked up a 2nd hand copy of Geoffrey Hughes' 'LNER', a great history of and background to the company.

But, he states something I'd not heard previously that (on p61) 'The Coronation' and 'The West Riding Pullman' trains were similar, both consisting of four ARTICULATED twins' (my capitals). I cannot recall any earlier mention of 'articulated' coaches on the WPR nor do any photos I have indicate any with them. (As I also bought another model Pullman coach - a Brake 3rd - to renumber and complete what I thought would represent a correct 'set' of WPR coaches would be grateful if this articulated issue could be clarified).

Graeme Leary
New Zealand