Winston Churchill's carriage

[Kestrel]

Winston Churchill's funeral carriage is being restored.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... death.html

[Mickey]

An interesting photograph in the Daily Mail overlooking the route of Churchill's funeral procession at Ludgate Hill in 1965 because as a then 8 year old my mum took me to a building overlooking the procession somewhere in that vicinity of Ludgate Hill, Chancery Lane or st Pauls to watch it pass by.

I can still vaguely remember watching it and i believe it may have taken place on a Saturday?.

Also when we got back home to north London an hour or so later after the funeral procession had passed by i remember being very interested in seeing the steam train leaving Waterloo (hauled by a Battle of Britain) carrying Churchill's body on the telly.

[drmditch]

Can anyone verify the following story:-

WSC left instructions that if he pre-deceased De Gaulle, his funeral train should leave from Waterloo, thus forcing the French Leader to attend the station named for the great French defeat!

Consequently the train had to leave from an SR station for a destination on the WR.

[richard]

Probably untrue:

http://www.strangehistory.net/2012/03/1 ... -waterloo/

I don't know anything strangehistory.net, but it references the research. The BBC are quoted as saying it as false, and the railway argument amounts to Waterloo being the more practical (closer to the river and the choice of loco and hence footplate experience).

[2392]

Can anyone verify the following story:-

WSC left instructions that if he pre-deceased De Gaulle, his funeral train should leave from Waterloo, thus forcing the French Leader to attend the station named for the great French defeat!

Consequently the train had to leave from an SR station for a destination on the WR.

From what I've heard how true or otherwise I don't know. But I've heard tell that Waterloo Station was named after the nearby Waterloo Bridge rather than the battle. And I couldn't really say what event or otherwise the Bridge was named after . What's more I could just see "Winnie" sitting on a grandstand cloud chuckling like there's no tomorrow at Citizen De Gaulles' discomfort at having wave his body off from there, for one last time.

[Mickey]

I always thought Waterloo station was named after the battle of Waterloo rather than the nearby Waterloo bridge?.

Maybe the sight of a S.R. Battle of Britain working Churchill's funeral train out of Paddington station was a step to far for most ex-GWR/B.R.(WR) men even in 1965?.

[Kestrel]

I can still vaguely remember watching it and i believe it may have taken place on a Saturday?.

Yes Micky, 30th January 1965 was a Saturday

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 505981.stm

[52D]

ISTR watching it on TV.

[Mickey]

Can anyone verify the following story:-

WSC left instructions that if he pre-deceased De Gaulle, his funeral train should leave from Waterloo, thus forcing the French Leader to attend the station named for the great French defeat!

Consequently the train had to leave from an SR station for a destination on the WR.

This story is also retold by Jim Lester the fireman on no.34051 that worked the funeral train which appears on the dvd about no.34051 Winston Churchill (released by Kingfisher in 2015) Jim says he told the story to Jeremy Paxman for BBCs Newsnight and Jeremy didn't believe the story either.

A rumour circulated from that time that no.34051 Winston Churchill was in fact no.34064 Fighter Command was totally dismissed by a senior member of the National Railway Museum at York he said that the loco was definitely no.34051 Winston Churchill.

After the great man's funeral the Churchill family returned to central London on the same train via the Western Region behind a Western diesel-hydraulic arriving in Paddington.

After working the funeral train Jim said no.34051 went light engine to Oxford shed to take on water and where he 'pushed the fire forward' then it made it's way back along the Western Region main line to Reading and then via the spur back onto the Southern Region although I don't recall Jim saying the loco returned to Nine Elms shed that day although I presume that it did so?. Also Jim went on to say that on the return run back to the Southern Region at Reading the loco Inspector who was also on the footplate of Winston Churchill as well turned to driver Alf Hurley and said don't you think the fireman should driver her back Alf?. And Jim did.

The 6 vehicles that made up the funeral train which were mainly Pullman cars and a 'hearse' van are all still in existence in various parts of the country.

Apparently Winston Churchill (the man himself) turned down the invitation to name 'his loco' at Waterloo station the only dignitary who did due to a prior engagement the naming ceremony was performed by Lord Dowding who's 'own loco' another Battle of Britain no.34052 was also being named at the same ceremony.

It's an ok dvd but I was slightly disappointed that there isn't any 'live' television film footage of no.34051 and the funeral train departing Waterloo station on the day this lapse in the dvd is 'made good' by showing several black & white stills photographs of the actual departure from Waterloo and the train passing Vauxhall station although there is some actual colour film footage taken lineside of no.34051 and it's train from further 'down the line' passing through various locations.

Mickey

[John Palmer]

The bogie luggage van (SR code: GBL) that carried WSC's coffin is, to me, an attractive design and typical of the Southern's propensity for re-use of old underframes - in this case from the LSWR.

The GBL's came in several varieties, one was 51' 3" over headstocks, another 53' 3". 2464 from the funeral train was of the 53' 3" type.

Tri-ang's old SR Utility Van turns out to be dimensionally highly accurate over much of its length, and as such lends itself to a 'cut and shut' into 4 quarters which, with the addition of new ends of the correct profile, makes a pleasing model representation of its 51' 3" length prototype.

At least one other GBL has survived in green livery on the Bluebell Railway. I note that 2464 is fitted with droplights to its centre doors. I think more than one of these vehicles may have been so fitted, as I think I have seen pictures of them in use as luggage vans with this feature on boat trains out of Folkestone.

[Mickey]

Apparently no.34051 Winston Churchill was a Salisbury engine for most of her working life and she was brought up especially from Salisbury to Nine Elms a number of days before her 'starring role' in that days proceedings of working sir Winston Churchill's funeral train from Waterloo to Handborough in Oxfordshire although on the day of Churchill's funeral she wore a 70A Nine Elms shed plate?. Jim Lester explained that because no.34051 had been worked on and made ready for her participation in that days proceedings by Nine Elms shed staff it was only fair that Nine Elms shed staff received the recognition (all be it only some small recognition of no.34051 wearing a 70A shed plate) for the hard work they put in into preparing the loco.

"She did look an impressive sight she really did and for Nine Elms locomen it was there finest hour!!"

Mickey

[kudu]

I always thought Waterloo station was named after the battle of Waterloo rather than the nearby Waterloo bridge?...

That is implausible given the proximity of the bridge (which would have been Strand Bridge had it been completed before the battle). Presumably the London & Southampton's original terminus would have been called Waterloo if the railway was so keen on commemorating an event several decades earlier.

Kudu

[Mickey]

I always thought Waterloo station was named after the battle of Waterloo rather than the nearby Waterloo bridge?...

That is implausible given the proximity of the bridge (which would have been Strand Bridge had it been completed before the battle). Presumably the London & Southampton's original terminus would have been called Waterloo if the railway was so keen on commemorating an event several decades earlier.

Nice try kudu.

'Off the top of my head' wasn't the original London terminus of the LSWR at Nine Elms before moving to the current Waterloo terminus site?.

To my shame i've never been that interested in the 'early railways' of the 1830s,1840s,1850s,1860s & 1870s I only start to get interested in british railway history from about the 1880s onwards until the end of the 1970s then I lose interest altogether.

Mickey

[kudu]

I always thought Waterloo station was named after the battle of Waterloo rather than the nearby Waterloo bridge?...

That is implausible given the proximity of the bridge (which would have been Strand Bridge had it been completed before the battle). Presumably the London & Southampton's original terminus would have been called Waterloo if the railway was so keen on commemorating an event several decades earlier.

Nice try kudu.

'Off the top of my head' wasn't the original London terminus of the LSWR at Nine Elms before moving to the current Waterloo terminus site?....

Mickey

Yes. Opened 1838. Another 10 years before Waterloo opened. The original building survived until the 60s, I believe.

My point was that Nine Elms would have been called Waterloo had the L&S been interested in remembering the battle. Waterloo the station was named after Waterloo the bridge, which was renamed after the battle.

Kudu

[Mickey]

My point was that Nine Elms would have been called Waterloo had the L&S been interested in remembering the battle. Waterloo the station was named after Waterloo the bridge, which was renamed after the battle.

I dare say you are correct with regards to Waterloo bridge being named after the battle kudu.

As it happens Waterloo station is my favourite London terminus the first time that I every visited the station was in 1964 with my parents on our way to the Isle of Wight for our summer holiday and I can remember a ex LMS 2-6-2 Ivatt tank standing up one of the platforms on the stops after bringing in a set of southern region ECS, a nice way to start a holiday.

Mickey