S.A.C. Martin wrote:...Are we really going to dismiss it out of hand? You can't see both sides of the van at the same time anyway.
I certainly have dismissed it, on the grounds of more trouble to correct than an existing solution. (I have 'history'. Of the last 15 years Chinese made product that had potential suitability for my modelling interest; didn't buy the Heljan Brush 4; didn't buy the Hornby Brush 2; didn't buy the Hornby Gresley gangwayed coaches; all of them for the same reason, manifest errors in appearance: which are more trouble to correct than the alternative of starting from an available superior solution. Progress is what I am looking for.)
No prejudice against OR, I'll buy the 6 plank open if it looks right when I have eyes on, may well be after their first two locos at some point to pillage for their potentially very useful drives; and hope to buy much else that they might produce as their subject choices so far look promising. At least it looks like I won't have to wait as long as I did for Heljan to make something of interest after their UK OO market entry (about nine years, class 15).
I respect your decision; it is of course not mine to take. We all have our different levels of "deal breakers" and I do respect that you have yours.
My only concern is that I feel there's been a lot of very vocal criticism of the product when the overall options available haven't been considered. For its price point it is a better model than the Bachmann or Dapol RTR alternatives and, accepting it has some flaws (and lets face it, avoidable flaws) it does not to me look to be completely beyond the pail.
S.A.C. Martin wrote:
I concede that point, but it's also true that with minimal effort this could be fixed. I reckon a small slit with a dremel and two notches cut out with a scalpel it could be done pretty easily.
Good luck Simon, I await the result with interest !!
I wouldn't recommend using a Dremel for such an operation.
1. Very dangerous ,as almost impossible to control the cut with any accuracy and not take your fingers off at the same time.
2. High likelihood of the plastic melting /distorting during the cut. I would suggest drill a small hole and cut with a fine fret saw.
If you take the body off the chassis, and put it in a vice, you can use a mini-dremel cutting tool on the lowest power to make the slit between the planks on the chosen side. If you are careful it can be done without any appendages going missing.
However your suggestion of the drill and fret saw is not without merit either and shows there's alternatives in modelling.
Overall I'm coming from the point of view that previously I was making up a train of ex-LMS diagram models with NE on the side from Bachmann for a representative cattle train. Now I can sell those and the Dapol ones and make up a more representative LNER train using modified Oxford Rail models instead. It's a case of one train being more representative than another but one also requiring a little bit more work.
Hi All I think S.A.C. Martin might find the use of a fret or piercing saw quite difficult as the model is a complete box and the blade will be at an awkward angle to clear the other side. I suggest a number of closely spaced holes about 1mm dia. along the edge of the full plank which needs to be removed and perhaps using a pin chuck and not a minidrill to ensure more control. Use a scalpel or Stanley knife blade to join up the holes and then a needle file to remove all the excess plank and replace it with the notched plank from the other end. It may be possible to use a scalpel to cut through both ends of this and reuse the piece removed "In reverse" at the other end although it will probably be necessary to file off the "Draught angle" of the moulding to match the other side in appearance. When fitting the correct bits back a small block of plastic glued inside at each end will prevent them being pushed in if the cement fails. Under no circumstances would I let a Dremel cutting tool loose on a plastic moulding like this !! When Hattons ask me for my filthy lucre to pay for the Hornby 58' stock next week I may add a couple of LNER cattles to the order if they have any left and have a go myself. I have a small cattle pen but only GWR wagons at the moment. I shan't order the 6 Planks as my 4 different kit versions have been available for nearly 40 years and are still up to my exacting standards which the OR models are not.
You keep mentioning your range , for the second time where can you buy them and what is in the range please? I am sure lots of people as well as me would like to know!!
As to using a Fret saw you already have the slot on the other side , use that as guide for the blade , taken slowly I see no problem. Drilling holes in soft plastic would have to be very accurate otherwise you end up with a nice wavy line to try and correct .
Just as a joke - I found in the "bits box" an unbuilt Airfix Cattle wagon - with the price still on it - 1/3d - about 6.25p in today's money!
Anyway, I built it just for fun - oh the nostalgia!
Hi All RayS's kit at 1s 3d seems cheap, I remember them as 2 bob (10P) when they first came out and they still knock spots off most RTR and kit models in terms of accuracy apart from the door hinges. Indeed for £7-07 you can buy the very same kit from Dapol. Only a 7000% increase in about 60 years but still cheaper than most kits, let alone RTR. Being the BR version it has it's limitations even though based on the GWR design, there are numerous dimensional and detail differences. I have a feeling they are still made in the UK, so much for progress or rather the lack of it !!
Last edited by adrianbs on Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hi All. I have now received one of each of the cattles to try and convert them to my standards of Bastardized P4 or as I prefer "Improved EM". The model reminds me of H.W. Longfellow's poem about a little girl who "when she was good she was very very good and when she was bad she was horrid" The first problem, previously undiscovered, is that the axle length is not the "Industry standard" 26mm but around 27.5mm which is annoying as it means an unnecessary axle transplant or replacing the axleguards which are further apart than they need be. I think I need a lie down in a darkened room to further contemplate this unexpected turn of events. Having used under length axles on the NBR wagon I rather expected the same on this model which would have been a far more satisfactory arrangement. I may return with my solution but it is not going to be just a quick wheelset swap as I do not like the fact that the axleguards are that extra distance apart, 26.5mm instead of 24.33mm outside. Such a shame that many GA drawing dimensions were not adhered to as this would have solved other problems at the same time.
Last edited by adrianbs on Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Hi All Weeellll 40mins in and the BR version has been well & truly wrecked. I have no idea how long it takes to assemble one of these but at about £10 I certainly won't be volunteering my services. I am going to do one unfitted wagon in either CLC or NE pre 1937 large lettering and one 10'wb in post 1937 small lettering. I have removed all the brake gear components carefully for use as spares if need be only leaving the lever guide for the moment. Most being pulled out with a pair of Maun parallel action smooth jawed pliers, the most useful item in my toolbox apart from my minidrill.
Some casualties resulted due to the strength of the glue but no matter, the important question was whether the two planks on one side that should be at the opposite ends could be removed AND reused. This proved successful using a new scalpel/craft knife blade cutting along the plank groove at one end and the ends of both planks. Gently, gently catchee monkey is the answer as the plastic is quite thin and fairly soft and numerous light cuts finally released both pieces without damage for use at the opposite ends but inside out.
The burrs and draught angles on the edges of the planks can be removed to make a perfect mirror image of the other side. The two door banger plates have been removed using a curved scalpel blade and fine wet and dry and the plank groove reinstated with the craft knife. The door bangers have been popped out for reuse and the 4 bolts on both solebars in the middle which hold the imaginary vacuum cylinder are next to be removed but not before I drill holes between them to make a new location for the door bangers.
That' all folks, for now at least.
Hi All Stage 2 in the conversion involves deciding what to do about wheelsets and axleguards, Naturally my inclination is to use my own axleguards and get them in exactly the right place but unfortunately the somewhat flawed standards originally set by the S4/P4 modellers mean this is not easy, even using my own "Improved EM" system. REAL axleguards are 5' 11.5" inside and 6' 1" outside for the most common wagons of 12/13T capacity and were the same for most of the last century. For me the outside face of the W/iron/axleguard is the important datum as it is the most visible whether the model has etched, cast whitemetal or moulded plastic units. It also determines the correct position for Vee hangers as well.
The 0.75" thick axleguards scale out at just O.25mm but etched 4mm units are usually 0.3mm whilst whitemetal and moulded plastic units vary from 0.6mm to about 2mm. The overscale edge thickness can be disguised by the modeller chamfering the back outer visible corners or occasionally by the manufacturer, as I have always done. S4 standards mean the faces are 24.60mm O/A as opposed to a correct scale figure of 24.33mm. To achieve this latter figure on the Cattle wagon means removal of the axleguard units which are over 2mm too far apart outside and slotting the floor to take the new castings as well as increasing the distance between the solebars from 24mm to 24.33mm. OR have assumed that if the back to back of the axleguards is 24mm, as per industry standard, the model will look correct. Neither the industry standard nor OR's model are accurate in this area.
Ran a train of these at the Erith Model Railway Club and had them lined up with the current Hornby, Dapol and Bachmann alternatives.
To a man (and woman) everyone agreed the Oxford model was by far superior. We then turned to the inaccuracies and it was 50/50 as to how much it bothered us and whether we'd modify them or not.
The thing that was raised to me was that the wagon itself looks good in a moving train but when stationary the inadequacies become more apparent.
I think throwing Hornby's newly tooled Southern region cattle wagon into the mix when it arrives might be interesting - the general consensus I got was that Oxford Rail are on the right lines for the balance between detail, robustness and crucially cost of a wagon such as this, but that by making such errors they might have put off a lot of people. Shame - I still think it's a nice enough model for what is.
I do accept we've all got different levels of deal breakers though.
Hi All By and large I agree with S.A.C. Martin and if you are looking at a moving train from 3 feet away or more there is little chance of spotting errors but that is almost equally true if you put pre-war Hornby Dublo tinplate cattle wagons into the mix. The disappointing aspect about the OR model is it is brand new and not decades old like the other models and there really is no technical reason why the model should have any of the errors. Indeed a bit of "intelligent design" and OR could have offered more accurate 7 plank POWs, 6 plank LNER opens and cattle wagons with the option of fitted and unfitted versions of the last two but with lower tooling costs than they have already incurred. Indeed they could well have been able to to offer fitted and unfitted 10'wb 6 plank opens and fitted 10'wb cattles as well with much the same tooling cost they have already had. Better still, the same tooling could have been used on numerous additional models with no alteration.
The fact that they have also decided to reinvent the wheel(set) has also meant unnecessary extra expense and less accurate models when there was absolutely no need. Quite why they decided to use 27.5mm pinpoint axles is a total mystery, only explained to my mind by someone making a major error in the design and using this as a "get out of jail free card". They have made quite a rod for their own backs with the complexity of the cattle wagon assembly when, as long ago as the late '50s, this problem had been fully solved with better detail, accuracy and greater simplicity.
I have started upgrading mine, not because I believe it will be a quicker and easier way to get a couple of LNER cattle wagons, it certainly won't. Building the Parkside kits will be quicker and they will all have to be painted and lettered, it is just to prove that it can be done, even though the cost will be about double that of the kit. I fully expect to find the Hornby SR cattle almost free of faults as I know who is advising them and the results of that collaboration has already resulted in some superb SR coaches in recent years.
Down to either cost (which I doubt very much) or very poor research . It looks like they used one photo/drawing and not much else as a guide . Very sad as I would have a few.
As Adrian has said above , the SR versions look superb as does the LMS Coke wagon coming as well.
Adrian makes all the right points, and probably in the right order too. Two basic points underlie this saga.
- A model of a historical prototype (and where there is an enormous amount of information) should be able to satisfy approaching 100% of customers. Only 50% is shocking.
- Guessing how or why a manufacturer gets it wrong is, as the saying goes, a fool's errand. I have my own opinions, a mixture of incompetence and deliberate corner-cutting, but it matters not - we should be assessing what is being placed before us, full stop. This is basic Sale of Goods Act stuff.
People keep muddying the waters with the "cheap and cheerful" concept as an excuse for a bad product, but that's mistaken - low selling price is a commercial decision to gain sales/market share.
On a different tack, "a rake of these cattle trucks" strikes me as fictional as the model itself! I have added more pictures on my w/s (link below) and in one there is not a single LNER-owned cattle truck, and in the other, only 1 out of 9. Nearly all the in-service photographs I have found so far (23) show this and that, in reality, other companies' cattle trucks dominated the scene.
Daring to put a toe into these contentious waters......
There is a picture of a K3 hauled down cattle train at Grantham in July 1933 in Michael Bonavia's History of the LNER Vol 2 page 73. The same picture can be seen in RCTS Part 6A Fog 119.
The first vehicle appears to be an LNER 9' wheelbase wagon, showing the characteristic hogging.
The next two are either exNER medium vehicles, or the Dia24 LNER build of the same vehicles.
Fourth comes another LNER built vehicle..... and then
The next five vehicles, as far as I can see and subject to correction, are LMS Dia 1661 (or it's Midland pre-cursor) or possible Dia 1840 if any had been built by then.
There may be two LNER/NER wagons further down in the train.
My point being that it is important (for any representation of an LNER cattle train) to have as many 'foreign' vehicles as 'native'!
I#m currently working on some of these, and will put up some details on my modelling thread when I've made more progress.