Oxfordrail LNER Cattle wagon

[adrianbs]

Hi All mick b may be right but since OR say the models are fully tooled and they SEEM to have made both sides of the Cattle wagon identical they will have to make serious alterations to one side to correct the error. Have they made an error, do they even know they have made an error, has anyone tried contacting them and, if so, did they get so much as an acknowledgement ?? It will also be interesting to see the finished vacuum pipe(S) as there should be LH and RH versions of course. As it stands the pipe is a figment of someone's infertile or should I say infantile imagination. Irrespective of what Oxford are likely to do or not do I see no reason to withhold information from manufacturers OR modellers. I have been criticised elsewhere for either being too late with my comments or being too early so either way the messenger gets shot. I prefer to be too early as there is always the possibility that changes can be made, no matter how unlikely, and it would not be the first time I can assure you.

[mick b]

Adrian
I am aware as I am sure others are, of the furore on RM Web re your similar posts , do we need to go down this route again ?
The model would appear in r.t.r terms prices to be a total bargain, when compared to other manufactures offerings and prices. It may or may not have detail slip ups, as I have already said let us simply wait and see.
I think you have contacted Oxford re faults on other products , no idea what response if any you got. If they won't listen to you and/or others posting on here similar complaints/observations are pointless.
Unless they are a total dog, I will be having a few of the 6 planks and the Cattle wagons in due course.

[adrianbs]

Dear Mick b Suppose the model IS a TOTAL DOG and I and others wait till you have bought one to tell you, assuming that, like the majority, you are not well enough informed to decide for yourself. What will you do then, complain I should have spoken earlier, try and return the model or keep it knowing the faults might have been corrected ?? I look forward to your reply and comments by others as to their preferences. Why read these comments if you do not wish to know anything about the model, or do you wish to only read fawning adulation. You can read the latter in the manufacturers blurb, their facebook site and in most magazine reviews. It is not my fault that OR wait until they have spent their budget on tooling before anyone is in a position to advise them of errors although a couple of alterations were made to the POWs following comments by modellers.

[mick b]

Everybody can see the photos and the product in the flesh when a actual production is issued , they can then make their own mind up whether they want to buy any.
You won't find me grovelling to anything or anybody on here or elsewhere. If Oxford or anyone else is daft enough in this current age not to study the prototype before making anything then more fool them. Its their financial loss no one else's
No idea why you think anyone would ask you in particular your opinion on whether its a total dog or not. For some reason you seem to be making products a personal crusade on Forums, why not do so with the makers they are the only ones who can change anything.

There are plenty of experts around if questions needed to be asked.

[D2100]

Everybody can see the photos and the product in the flesh when a actual production is issued , they can then make their own mind up whether they want to buy any.
.

Disagree Mick. If a model is outside my own zone of specialism, I often use forum posts by others to guide me to any problem areas. I'll still exercise my own judgment - are their criticisms correct, is it just a build variation, is it something I can overlook or alter myself - but I still find such posts helpful.

[65447]

Disagree Mick. If a model is outside my own zone of specialism, I often use forum posts by others to guide me to any problem areas. I'll still exercise my own judgment - are their criticisms correct, is it just a build variation, is it something I can overlook or alter myself - but I still find such posts helpful.

But surely even a tolerant man such as you Ian must wonder why a small nail needs to be hammered so hard and for so long and from so many different directions?

I find your 'windcutter' blogs honest, informative and stimulating and they never drive me towards the headache pills.

If 'adrianbs' is Adrian Swain, is he then the same Adrian Swain who has bought up so many whitemetal kit moulds but just hoards them? However if he is not, then sincere apologies.

[mick b]

Everybody can see the photos and the product in the flesh when a actual production is issued , they can then make their own mind up whether they want to buy any.
.

Disagree Mick. If a model is outside my own zone of specialism, I often use forum posts by others to guide me to any problem areas. I'll still exercise my own judgment - are their criticisms correct, is it just a build variation, is it something I can overlook or alter myself - but I still find such posts helpful.

No problem thats why I said there are plenty of experts if needed on my last line of the post.

[D2100]

But surely even a tolerant man such as you Ian must wonder why a small nail needs to be hammered so hard and for so long and from so many different directions?

Oh, absolutely so Mike. Adrian knows this, but whilst I fully support the notion of objective appraisal (a much nicer word than 'criticism'), I do feel that his particular style undermines the more moderate efforts of the rest of us.

I find your 'windcutter' blogs honest, informative and stimulating and they never drive me towards the headache pills.
.

Thank you, I try not to let them drive me that way either

[adrianbs]

Dear All It has now been confirmed that both sides of the sample Cattle wagon are identical instead of significantly different which is a "Killer" error and unless the sample is a badly made kit with two "A" sides from 2 different kits OR have got a great deal of thinking to do. Do they press ahead and hope none of the reviewers notice and no one on RMweb is brave enough to risk being banned by pointing this out or do they spend quite a lot of money on new CADs and tooling to fully correct this and all the other errors. My money is on the model not being upgraded as they seem to believe that most modellers are too unobservant to notice and would only get upset if it was brought to their attention by being widely publicised.

[adrianbs]

Hi All Someone in "another place" was wondering about what happened to the CLC wagons that became LMS stock after 1930. A certain gentleman of the nearby parish, Mr P Tatlow, has given me as much info as he has found, which is some help in renumbering, but not precise. The division of stock was 1/3rd to the LMS and 2/3rds to the LNER. Apparently 1370 CLC wagons were transferred to the LMS, most of which would have been pre-group designs, but of the 5 AVB cattles, 15 handbrake only but piped Cattles and 130 standard 6 plank LNER unfitted opens, clearly some of each reached the LMS and presumably received LMS large lettering livery?? The exact numbering is not known but the total of 1370 was in a block from 357951 to 359999. Anyone wishing to add something unusual to their LMS fleet would be fairly safe using numbers 358xxx or 359xxx for these wagons.
If there is someone out there with more exact details, I for one would like to hear, even if they only identified one single ex LNER design in the LMS fleet.

[adrianbs]

Hi All Having become accustomed to Oxfordrail's use of unauthentic liveries on all their 7 plank wagons and probably all the PO versions of the NBR wagon I suppose it should come as no surprise that they have even made numerous errors on the LNER and BR Cattle wagons. Nevertheless it does mystify me that with all the available reference material they should choose to use wagon numbers from Dia 10 7 plank mineral wagons rather than from the cattle wagon series. In addition they have transposed the "Number" and "Large" on the LNER version for which I have found no evidence and have used the BR livery on a 9' wb wagon when it is doubtful if any were repainted before being scrapped. It is even more unlikely that the XP branding would have appeared since it was reserved for 10' wb or longer wagons. Even the BR lettering seems to have been misplaced, being one plank too high at the LH end and 1 plank too low at the other when compared with available photos. This is not to say OR have not found evidence to support their livery but I would certainly like to see it before I was prepared to believe it and the numbering will still be wrong anyway. I would have thought it would have been better to use the later post 1936 or post war lettering rather than the BR style for a second version but then what do I know about such matters ??
I would have emailed them about this but have given up contacting certain manufacturers since they appear to take no interest in the accuracy of their models. My comments may help the like minded rivet counters decide whether to buy or not, it is unlikely reviews will point these errors out and even more unlikely that a certain other forum will do so.

[adrianbs]

Hi All Good news for those wanting a BR liveried Cattle wagon with 9' wb, at least as late as 1954, and apparently still in use. Geoff Kent's book "The 4mm wagon vol 2" shows one on page 56. I don't think it can be a 10'wb one as it looks like 9' and lacks the additional corner plates at the ends of the diagonal bracing. The livery appears to match that on 10'wb wagons but there is no sign of the XP although the wagon is fairly tatty. It is possible to see the letters VB ( vacuum braked )in the middle RH side of the end however and this seems general on the vacuum braked variant. Bearing in mind the large numbers of both unfitted and fitted 9' wagons still extant in 1947 there is the possibility that some of the unfitted wagons also lasted this late or later although probably in rapidly diminishing numbers as they were superseded by new build BR designs. The wagon does NOT have COND on the side, nor does the early unfitted LMS cattle next to it, so is probably not on it's way to the scrapyard. I wonder if OR will equip the later livery versions with the later style brakeshoes which, by BR days, would almost certainly be in universal use. Therein lies another can of worms !! If they correct the major errors I will not care which brakeshoes they use as I have stocks of both.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Thank you for the heads up Adrian on the details of the LNER liveried cattle wagon. It is disappointing to see easily avoided errors on any new model, particularly when there is a wealth of information and researchers available out there to help.

For what it's worth I don't subscribe to the view that we should sugar coat everything to the masses. If something is wrong, it's wrong, and if it can be evidenced and shown so that people can make an informed opinion all the better.

Don't think that I haven't noted that written on other forums and may I put forward my thanks for you looking into the details and sharing your wealth of information.

I don't always agree with the robust way you put forward your views but I appreciate greatly that you have done so much for the hobby we share in and I would hope others in the model railway media might remember that and also appreciate that when things are written on screens you don't get the whole story (tone and context are not exactly easily discernible).

My question for you is: are the physical errors on the LNER liveried model (i.e. the reputed mirrored sides) easily fixable? Or will this require some extensive remodelling of one side of the vehicle?

[adrianbs]

Hi Martin, Obviously my hope is that OR will correct the errors or at least the major one of two identical sides. Bearing in mind what these wagons carried a significant amount of weathering (putting it politely) of the lower sides might hide some of the plastic surgery, It will be necessary to carefully remove the plank with the notches between the diagonal and the end on one side and replace with a wider one to eliminate the gap or use filler of some sort. I would prefer the first option. At the other end it would probably be best to remove the whole plank and replace with a narrow one with the necessary notches. A repaint will then sort out the LNER version but you will need to reletter the BR one even if the numbers have been corrected, Two new upper locating planks are also needed at the correct end with matching notches. If you cannot get inside the wagon because the roof and floor are not removable this work may not be as simple as it sounds. Quite what you do about the partition itself which could be in the large, medium or small position depends if you can get one made from plastic sheet and get it inside. If OR persist with current livery errors you will need to reletter some of the LNER version.
Assuming a Vac cylinder eventually appears you will not need to source that or the correct steam and vacuum pipes, although I could suggest a source for those if I had the nerve, should they not be supplied. The only other mod to the body is to move the door banger to the centre of the solebar on the side away from the vacuum cylinder and remove and remake the banger plate to match on the drop flap door.
The chassis may need attention to the brake lever as it should be tight against the Vee hanger and have a little lump on the top at that end to represent the dog clutch. Later style brake shoes are available from the same source if needed but may be best left alone as replacing them may lead to serious complications. NOTE although the body is handed relative to the chassis there is photo evidence that either way round is correct but look at photos before starting to decide which variant you are portraying. NB It is relatively easy to convert to an unfitted version by removing all brakegear and substituting RCH '23 Morton 9' wb 2 shoe brakegear, also available as w/m components or etched parts. The long buffers are rather skinny and can also be replaced if desired with RCH '23 4 rib 20.5" buffers. Only the CLC versions of unfitted wagons had vacuum pipes but there were no steam pipes on either. Renumbering etc will be needed for unfitted versions even if the OR numbers are corrected for the fitted model. Remember that an unfitted wagon has BOTH door bangers and plates centrally positioned so you may have to move them on both sides and refit.
Hopefully all this unnecessary work will not be needed but on past performance I am not holding my breath and I doubt OR will be communicating any information on this or any other forum.

[adrianbs]

Hi All NUMBERING ANOMALY on LNER cattle wagons.
Is there anyone out there who can throw light on the following Wagons 156203, and 150732 Both are shown in photographs in LNER wagons Vol 4b as having vacuum brakes, 9' wb and pre 1936 lettering. These two numbers are included in the Diagram 40 wagons which should have Morton 2 shoe unfitted brakegear. Can anyone offer an explanation for this ?? Were some wagons ordered as unfitted actually built as fitted or upgraded after being built. The two wagons come from different batches built in 1929 and 1926 respectively so it seems unlikely that one order only was altered in specification especially as one lot was built in Doncaster and the other at Faverdale. More intriguing is the fact that the block numbers 150670 to 150919 correctly included one unfitted wagon 150878. Has any one got pictures of different wagons not shown in the books by Geoff Kent, Peter Tatlow or Geoff Gamble. If so, what are the numbers, brake types and dates if known. Naturally I expect OR to use photographs to accurately renumber their models but additional numbers to supplement those known are always useful, especially in view of the anomalies. Good hunting.