Great Northern "Metropolitan" Coaches

[J Yoder]

Good morning,

I was wondering if anyone might have information (including drawings or at least a source for drawings) of the four-wheel "Metropolitan" stock used by the Great Northern.

[john coffin]

what period are you looking for ?

paul

[J Yoder]

I'm mostly interested in both the pre-grouping period, but I'm also curious about what happened to them after the creation on LNER.

[65447]

4-wheel coaches were built, for example, around 1874 and were then superseded by 6-wheel and then 8-wheel coaches for various services include the suburban workings.

They would not be covered in any writings on the LNER period other to note that bogied carriages were to be built to reduce the inherited stock of 4- and 6-wheeled vehicles, a process which took rather longer than originally hoped due to industrial action, economic depression and other external factors. However those would not include coaches around 50 years old at Grouping in 1923, which would long have been disposed of - as would the locomotives of Sturrock and his predecessors that hauled them.

I would recommend that you continue reading up on the LNER and in this instance the GNR, before jumping in at the very deep end of chronology.

[JASd17]

Photographic evidence shows some of the GNR 4-wheel sets, used on the King's Cross suburban workings, lasted into the early LNER period.

John

[65447]

Photographic evidence shows some of the GNR 4-wheel sets, used on the King's Cross suburban workings, lasted into the early LNER period.

John

Well John, which ones were they? The histories are good on introductions but not withdrawals, whilst the GNR (like the GER) had form for rebuilding, re-forming and in their case articulating to the extent that it is hard to follow.

And a note of the source of the evidence would be most useful here.

[john coffin]

Reasonably, the GNR had two periods of 4 wheel carriages that they actually defined as Metropolitan. The initial Sturrock type which were converted in 1863, and were really "normal" GNR carriages. Later around 1876 a number were built by What became Metro Cammell near Birmingham.
These were built in sets, including brake ends, of between 10 and 12 carriages, depending on where they were going on the "widened lines"
More 4 wheelers were built in the 1880's with specifically birdcage brake ends, and finally, after the last 6 wheelers were built in the mid 1890's
a range of about 10 sets were built, mainly by Cravens around 1899-1901. These were the recessed door type.

It is certain, from photographic evidence, certain 4 wheel carriages were still around in 1954, at least a brake van was still around at that time.

Whilst it is difficult to find proper details of all early GNR trains, in terms of carriage formations, details of many withdrawal dates are around if you know where to look and who to ask.

Paul

[J Yoder]

4-wheel coaches were built, for example, around 1874 and were then superseded by 6-wheel and then 8-wheel coaches for various services include the suburban workings.

They would not be covered in any writings on the LNER period other to note that bogied carriages were to be built to reduce the inherited stock of 4- and 6-wheeled vehicles, a process which took rather longer than originally hoped due to industrial action, economic depression and other external factors. However those would not include coaches around 50 years old at Grouping in 1923, which would long have been disposed of - as would the locomotives of Sturrock and his predecessors that hauled them.

I would recommend that you continue reading up on the LNER and in this instance the GNR, before jumping in at the very deep end of chronology.

What prompted my question was this picture of a Metropolitan coach. According to the blog post associated with the picture, this Holden designed four wheel wagon was built in 1900. I was wondering if there might be drawings or at least dimensions for the wagon.

Would the GNR society be a good source?

[john coffin]

We tend to not call them wagons, rather carriages.

Pm me for more details

Paul

[J Yoder]

We tend to not call them wagons, rather carriages.

Pm me for more details

Paul

Thanks for the correction. I'm still getting used to the nomenclature.

[swhite01]

There are examples of drawings of the GNR 4 wheel carriages on the NRM website in the research section. They are not very useful due to the way they have been reproduced but will provide and idea of the structure of the vehicles. Image E41 as noted below is particularly detailed and covers later vehicles. ( the drawing themselves are a work of art and are quite inspiring when handling at the NRM)

The images they post are of the earlier type 4 wheel vehicle:-
http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchiv ... group=LNER Carriage %26 Wagon&objid=010

and a single drawing image of the later vehicles, Dia 436, Third Class Brake, Drawing E41:-

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchiv ... group=LNER Carriage %26 Wagon&objid=E41

The photo you reference in the notes above is from the NRM archive images, the particular image is Doncaster Ref DON 290, the image is of a Dia 441, No 903, 5 Compartment Third, built in 1900, one of a batch of 8 vehicles, a further batch of 28 were built, a couple of which survived into LNER ownership and were shown as being renumbered into the LNER system, the image is dated 3rd October 1900.

There are a number of other images of the GNR 4 Wheel stock in the archives at the NRM.

I realize from your location that visiting probably isn't an option but the NRM website provides access to indexes etc.

Within the Great Northern Railway Society (GNRS) we have a series of publications covering Great Northern Railway Coaching Stock, the 4 wheel vehicle volume has been in preparation for some time and there is no publishing date as yet.

The society do have a copy of the GNR Coach Diagram book, this is a copy of the NRM document but due to copyright it is only available to members. The publication was a working document and details in diagram form, the many coach diagram no's, showing major dimensions, weights and number history. For these early vehicles a variety of wheelbases where used within a diagram and these are generally detailed.
Unfortunately this issue of the GNR Diagram book does not include diagrams of the 4 wheel vehicles in their articulated form, only as single vehicles.

I hope the above is of interest and help,

Steve

http://www.gnrsociety.com

[65447]

What prompted my question was this picture of a Metropolitan coach. According to the blog post associated with the picture, this Holden designed four wheel wagon was built in 1900. I was wondering if there might be drawings or at least dimensions for the wagon.

Would the GNR society be a good source?

My apologies for misleading you. I assumed (never a good idea) that even the parsimonious GNR board would not be building 4-wheel dog-boxes at a date (1900) after the impressive 12-wheeler clerestory GN and East Coast Joint Stock carriages of the previous decade. I sourced my information from FAS Brown's 'Great Northern Locomotive Engineers' volume 1, thinking that would be the correct timeframe for 4-wheel passenger carrying stock - clearly I was wrong.

The photograph linked from Adrian Marks' 'Basilica Fields' blog is indeed one, but please note it should be 'Howlden' not 'Holden' - the former was the GN Carriage and Wagon Superintendent under Ivatt whilst the Holdens, father James and son Stephen, were GER Locomotive Engineers.

I was unable to open the links provided by Steve, but I would have every confidence in his and the GNR Society's knowledge in such matters.

[swhite01]

I have to apologise for the links, they were to individual drawings on the NRM database, I have a further link to the Engineering drawings section. Each drawing is identified by its Drg No. for the earlier vehicle 010, for the later E41.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchiv ... geandwagon

I have tried this and its works..... for me at least

Steve