New Barnet North Signalbox

[Mickey]

Yes that was some crossing at New Barnet North Box Eddie the 'long crossing' which was similar to the other long crossing to be found in that area a few miles further south at New Southgate that crossing also started in the Down slow line and went right across all running lines and into the Up Goods line crossing the Down fast, Up fast & Up slow lines that crossing also had trailing slips in the diamonds as well and a feature of that crossing was it made 'hell of a racket' when any train ran over it at speed in particular on the Up & Down fast lines because the noise use to echo off the tall brickwork of the bridge arches with the crossing going right underneath it at that point!!.

Back to New Barnet North Box and two signalman's names that i remember hearing about from that box in the early 1970s apart from Brian Barr was John Saggers who was a NUR (Railway Union) bloke and Brian Long. Brian Long had the nickname 'Lurch' i remember but he came off signalling around 1972 (i think it was?) and went as a guard at Kings Cross on the suburban routes and was usually to be found working Kings Cross-Welwyn Garden City-Hertford North DMU diagrams also another young bloke who was a telegraph lad at the box during the mid 1960s i believe was a bloke called Keith Challon (i think thats how his surname was spelt?) he use to live at Welwyn Garden City and at some point after passing out as a signalman he went as a regular signalman at Holloway North Down (box) during the early/mid 1970s and in fact i believe he may have stayed at that box until it closed in August of 1976 before he to went as a guard like Brian Long on the Kings Cross suburban routes.

Mickey

[Mickey]

Your previous reference to the 'stirrup type of detonator placers' Eddie at Oakleigh Park (box) reminds me of something i vaguely recall from 45 years ago and if Stevie reads this he will may well clarify it?. When they took the lever frame out of New Barnet North Box in the autumn of 1970 and commissioned the Switch Panel (the 1st panel) they provided mechanical type of Detonator Placers outside the box in the Up & Down fast lines possibly worked via point rodding running back into the box but i'm not totally certain about that??.

Below NEW BARNET NORTH BOX seen in 1976 on a foggy day looking northwards towards the Greenwood/Hadley Wood direction.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3813329TQ2696

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey,
Know what you mean about the noisy crossovers.the one at BN just the same located right on the road bridge. Talking about that overbridge at New Southgate, a long time ago (1920's ?) there used to be two signal boxes suspended under the arches, one on the down side, one on the up side....have you ever heard anything about them ? Back to names from the past.....Keith Challon, the name rings no bells I'm afraid, but was John Saggers Tele Lad at Potters Bar sometime in the 60's, I have a feeling I met him there when I was on the Finsbury Park relief and spend quite some time there doing I lot of twelve hour shifts nights and days. Also I remember the name Brian Long and his nickname...was he at OH sometime or on the Hertford branch (Cuffley?). I never knew that some signalmen transferred to other jobs during the electrification, but I suppose they didn't have much choice. You mention the location of detonators at BN....when the original frame was there they were operated by levers 2-down slow, 25-down fast, 57-up fast, 64-up slow. Good picture of the box you downloaded it still looked quite smart ! Between the signalbox and the north end of the up platform there used to be a very large solid concrete above ground WW2 air raid shelter, which I guess would have been used by passengers on the station. Looking at that picture of the box reminds me of when we t/lads would be sent outside on a Saturday afternoon to clean the windows ,standing on the narrow boarding and hanging on to the rail like grim death as an up express thundered by. No Health & Safety then !! Happy days !

Eddie

[Mickey]

Talking about that overbridge at New Southgate, a long time ago (1920's ?) there used to be two signal boxes suspended under the arches, one on the down side, one on the up side....have you ever heard anything about them?

Yes i've heard of them Eddie and i've also seen several old b&w photographs that feature them both from the 1920s & 1930s, they were built high up into the brick arches of the tall road bridge one box was for signalling the Up lines and the other box was for signalling the Down lines also i believe there may have been an old GNR s/box on the Down side of the running lines (nearly) opposite the New Southgate (box) that we all remember at onetime?. The box that most people remember as New Southgate (box) standing at the south end of the Up platform between the Up fast & Up slow lines i think was originally numbered New Southgate No.4 (box) and the box that stood on the Down side of the running lines (nearly) opposite New Southgate No.4 (box) was New Southgate No.1 (box)?.

Keith Challon, the name rings no bells I'm afraid, but was John Saggers Tele Lad at Potters Bar sometime in the 60's, I have a feeling I met him there when I was on the Finsbury Park relief and spend quite some time there doing I lot of twelve hour shifts nights and days. Also I remember the name Brian Long and his nickname...was he at OH sometime or on the Hertford branch (Cuffley?).

John Saggers got involved with the old NUR (National Union of Railwaymen) which became the RMT (Rail Maritime & Transport) and i think he may have got quite high up in it because i think i remember hearing his name being mentioned on BBC radio back in the 1990s or early 2000s in regards to him being on the RMT executive council??.

I never knew that some signalmen transferred to other jobs during the electrification, but I suppose they didn't have much choice.

A number of signalmen either took the money or retired or some went into Kings Cross PSB (Power Box) as signalmen during 1975/76 era after the last of the local controlled NX panel s/boxes like Wood Green, New Barnet, Welwyn Garden City and several others closed and Kings Cross Power Box was fully commissioned at last between Kings Cross & Sandy including the Hertford branch. From a personal point of view when the telegraph lads position at Welwyn Garden City (box) was abolished in March 1974 i did have it in writing of transferring to Finsbury Park 6 (box) as a telegraph lad for maybe a year before that place closed but i decided at the last knockings to transfer onto the loco at Kings Cross as a secondman which lasted for about 18 months until September of 1975 before i left the railway for about 3 years before re-joining again in the early part of 1979.

Good picture of the box you downloaded it still looks quite smart!

Yes i like the painted colours B.R. chose for those 5 s/boxes and from memory they re-painted those boxes, New Southgate, Cemetery, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet South Box & New Barnet North Box all in the same colours (the same as New Barnet North Box in the picture) sometime around 1969 or early 1970 (i think it was?) and they all looked pretty good painted up in those colours i always thought.

Looking at that picture of the box reminds me of when we t/lads would be sent outside on a Saturday afternoon to clean the windows ,standing on the narrow boarding and hanging on to the rail like grim death as an up express thundered by. No Health & Safety then !!

Ah yes H&S would go bonkers nowadays!!.


Mickey

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey,
New Southgate must have been a busy place with four boxes. The New Southgate box we remember (ZP) ...do you think that would have been a new build to replace all four of the old boxes ? I only visited the box once...very narrow and not much room inside. It seemed to have been squeezed in at the end of the up platform between the up fast and up slow. It had a 65 lever McKenzie & Holland frame (same as in Cemetery, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet South and New Barnet North). The up fast home signal was right up against the 'box. Anyone remember the name Cliff Eales ? He was Tele Lad at New Southgate in the 60's . We started together at Hatfield Signals School doing our six weeks training for the ' single needle' . When we passed out I went to Barnet North and he went to New Southgate. The signals school at Hatfield was in the old 'Royal Waiting Rooms' located just behind the two bay platforms on the up side. Re the signalmens jobs during the electrification, Brian Barr from BN went on to Kings Cross PSB and I was lucky to get a visit to the box in 1987. I've just found some b/w photo's I took in the early 60's in the Barnet and Oakleigh Park area.
Eddie

[Dave Cockle]

Hello Eddie,

in an earlier post mention was made of Cuneo's painting "The Early Shift". The signalman depicted in Greenwood box was Wilf Stockley, then a relief man. I started as a telegraph lad in 1969 at Finsbury Park No 3 and Wilf was a resident signalman there with me. I have just spoken to Brian Barr on the phone this evening and he confirmed that it was not him but Wilf in Cuneo's painting.

Brian also told me that he worked Greenwood box for the final shift before it closed and that the railway enthusiast, whose back garden laterly displayed the closed box's name board, was called Jack Boston. Jack was a regular unofficial visitor to Greenwood box.

[StevieG]

Hello chaps.
A few small details from your conversations that I might help with.
- That 440-yard clearing point track circuit was the only one I ever encountered that forced you to wait for it to clear before 'giving out' because its indicating occupied actually held the rear section Block needle at Train-On-Line until it went Clear, so after you had put the No.10 "Home" back to Danger it was possible to 'unpeg' the commutator to "Normal", then just wait, ready to give 'out of section' when you saw the needle drop.
- Oakleigh Park 1 lever was definitely the electric release for both Down Goods/Siding(s?) ground frames : 'Barnet South' never had any direct control of them.
- OP9 Down Fast Distant was certainly approach-lit by the track circuit between it and Cemetery's DF Home (C5) [TC not indicated in any box], but for a train running under clear signals it would've been insufficient time to be sure that the driver had a reasonably long view of OP9 if it was lit by that TC only, so if Cemetery's Home was 'Off', OP9 also lit up if there was, either, anything occupying the berth TC to Cemetery's Home, or, on another 'not indicated' TC that ran from 'Southgate's DF Starter to Cemetery's berth TC.
- At OP, 'Freddie' was also an always 'straight up' man on the bells : Whenever I visited Barnet South we always had to 'put the 1s in' if Freddie was at OP.
- People : Alan 'Bubbles' Layton : Was regular at Wood Green 2 when I knew of him, and ended up [via Wood Green (No.4) temporary power box (panel) ], in the new KX Power Box, and was there until at least 1987.
- The only men I knew of at Cemetery for the few years from late '67/68, were Roy Coombe(s?) (regular) and Arthur Connell (also regular?).
- A young man who latterly arrived as regular at Oakleigh Park, while Freddie Freer was still there, was Roger Gardiner (later moved on to Elmswell).
- Mo Cantor also knew Barnet South - I remember him relieving there late one evening when the box was to stay open for a night shift for some reason.
- Also about 1967/8, I also knew that Brians Barr and Long were the regulars at Barnet North, and the lads were Keith Challon and L.T.R. (Laurie) King.
- The aircraft crash that took Cliff Loveland from us also claimed reliefmen Dave Lindstrom and Albert Henty : Can't remember 100% now but pretty sure that Albert held a pilot's licence and may have been the pilot at the time; also not sure if a 4th person was also aboard, and if yes, may've been another railwayman.
- As has been mentioned sometime previously Mickey, the crossover at 'Southgate' actually crossed the Up Goods (including usual single slip), and ended in the siding that served the long loading dock on the east side of the station. Other long 'Through Crossover's like this and 'Barnet North's also did/had existed at Holloway 'North', both ends of the stations at Wood Green, 'Barnet' and Hatfield (though 'Barnet South's only stretched from Down Slow to Up Slow; But may have been longer in the earlier days of New Barnet Nos. 1 & 2 boxes), plus Knebworth, Langley, (Stevenage South?), and both ends of Hitchin (Down Siding/s - Up Fast only).
- Met Cliff Eales once or twice, but he was rlf.sig. by then, knowing 'Southgate' and 'Barnet North' to name but two (probably others). This was the period when Basil La Riviere and Geoff Brook were the only regulars there.
- There was a N.S. No.1 Mickey, on the Down side but a bit further south than No.4 (which, as you've said, was extended to be the later 'New Southgate' that we knew : Its frame was actually 1 - 60).
- The old N.Southgate north end boxes up in the arch-tops of Friern Barnet Road overbridge were No.3 (Down) and No.2 (Up).
- The 1970 New Barnet resignalling's small IFS switch panel that replaced the frame in North box, included four detonator placer switches Mickey, because the new det.placers outside were actually operated by Westinghouse motors on short posts (same/similar to those used for Western Region motorised semaphore signals).

[Mickey]

The New Southgate box we remember (ZP) ...do you think that would have been a new build to replace all four of the old boxes ? I only visited the box once...very narrow and not much room inside. It seemed to have been squeezed in at the end of the up platform between the up fast and up slow. It had a 65 lever McKenzie & Holland frame (same as in Cemetery, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet South and New Barnet North). The up fast home signal was right up against the 'box.

I'm not sure if the New Southgate (box) we all remember replaced an earlier box Eddie but i also visited it in late 1972 (a few months before it closed in February 1973) and Jim Burnette was the signalman and yes it was a fairly narrow box inside i remember not much room to play with when a lever or several levers were reversed in the frame i'd say?. Yes that co-acting stop signal right outside the box in the Up fast line was a interesting one.

Anyone remember the name Cliff Eales ? He was Tele Lad at New Southgate in the 60's . We started together at Hatfield Signals School doing our six weeks training for the ' single needle' . When we passed out I went to Barnet North and he went to New Southgate. The signals school at Hatfield was in the old 'Royal Waiting Rooms' located just behind the two bay platforms on the up side.

I've heard Cliff Eales name mentioned in the past also i remember Alan Dollimore a telegraph lad at Welwyn Garden City (box) between 1962-63 also telling me back in 1968/69 that he had gone through the signals school at Hatfield to learn the s/n telegraph instrument as well and as you say Eddie it was located in the old Royal Waiting Room on Hatfield station, later on probably from the late 1960s onwards through the 1970s and into the 1980s the signalling school was relocated to Ilford on the border of East London & Essex and i went through it myself in Feb/Mar 1980.


Stevie knows a lot about New Southgate (box) he visited on several occasions during the late 1960s as previously posted by him on various topic threads related to New Southgate (box).

Mickey

[Mickey]

Brian also told me that he worked Greenwood box for the final shift before it closed and that the railway enthusiast, whose back garden laterly displayed the closed box's name board, was called Jack Boston. Jack was a regular unofficial visitor to Greenwood box.

Interesting Dave i mentioned before about one of the old Greenwood (box) nameboards being displayed in one of the long back gardens that backs onto the Down slow line on the approach to Hadley Wood south tunnel and didn't get much response although Eddie said he remembered it a few posts back. The nameboard disappeared from the back garden sometime around 1968 or early in 1969 i vaguely remember and was never to be seen again.

Mickey

[Mickey]

That 440-yard clearing point track circuit was the only one I ever encountered that forced you to wait for it to clear before 'giving out' because its indicating occupied actually held the rear section Block needle at Train-On-Line until it went Clear, so after you had put the No.10 "Home" back to Danger it was possible to 'unpeg' the commutator to "Normal", then just wait, ready to give 'out of section' when you saw the needle drop.

We had something similar at Upper Holloway Stevie (the portacabin box) when it was still Absolute Block (until November 2009) with Harringay Park Junction (box) on the Up T&H line the 440 yards 'clearing point' beyond UH1061 signal ended at the 'block joint' between TCs T1113 & T1115 so while TC1113 was showing occupied the 'block needle' (on the B.R. plastic block instrument) was held over at Train On Line until TC T1113 cleared again and it then became 'free' to 'drop the needle' back to Harringay Park Junction (box) .

Oh Park 1 lever was definitely the electric release for both Down Goods/Siding(s?) ground frames : 'Barnet South' never had any direct control of them.

Noted Stevie.

- OP9 Down Fast Distant was certainly approach-lit by the track circuit between it and Cemetery's DF Home (C5) [TC not indicated in any box], but for a train running under clear signals it would've been insufficient time to be sure that the driver had a reasonably long view of OP9 if it was lit by that TC only, so if Cemetery's Home was 'Off', OP9 also lit up if there was, either, anything occupying the berth TC to Cemetery's Home, or, on another 'not indicated' TC that ran from 'Southgate's DF Starter to Cemetery's berth TC.

That did cross my mind as well Stevie.

At OP, 'Freddie' was also an always 'straight up' man on the bells : Whenever I visited Barnet South we always had to 'put the 1s in' if Freddie was at OP.

Nobody at Welwyn Garden City (box) ever worked ""straight" on the blocks unless the Signalling D.Is. Johnny May, Noggy Nye, Ted Bosnall or the station manager Jack Mead or his deputy Mr.Hamer came up the box and then the 1-2-1-2 bell would be 'banged out' to the boxes either side as they were seen walking along the platform to the box!!. Maybe i shouldn't have posted this??. Lol ha ha ha ha ha...

The only men I knew of at Cemetery for the few years from late '67/68, were Roy Coombe(s?) (regular) and Arthur Connell (also regular?).

I've heard of Roy Coombe(s) name in the past

Mo Cantor also knew Barnet South - I remember him relieving there late one evening when the box was to stay open for a night shift for some reason.

Mo Cantor was a nice bloke and hq1hitchin posted about 18 months ago that old Mo had only died a few years ago anyway Mo was 'on the book' at Welwyn Garden City (box) on my first day at the box as a telegraph lad on Monday July 17th 1972 i remember he also let me visit him at Welwyn North (box) Knebworth (box) & Stevenage North (box) during the summer of 1972 and to work on there lever frames that was great!!.

The aircraft crash that took Cliff Loveland from us also claimed reliefmen Dave Lindstrom and Albert Henty : Can't remember 100% now but pretty sure that Albert held a pilot's licence and may have been the pilot at the time; also not sure if a 4th person was also aboard, and if yes, may've been another railwayman.

I have that light aircraft crash imprinted in my brain since i first heard about it back in 1968.

As has been mentioned sometime previously Mickey, the crossover at 'Southgate' actually crossed the Up Goods (including usual single slip), and ended in the siding that served the long loading dock on the east side of the station.

Yes you did Stevie but once that 'long crossing' gets over to the Up side of the running lines it gets a bit fuzzy in my mind but your correct.

There was a N.S. No.1 Mickey, on the Down side but a bit further south than No.4 (which, as you've said, was extended to be the later 'New Southgate' that we knew : Its frame was actually 1 - 60).

I was about 95% certain that there was a New Southgate No.1 (box) that signalled the Down lines only Stevie but i didn't want to post that unless i was 100% certain there had been.

The 1970 New Barnet resignalling's small IFS switch panel that replaced the frame in North box, included four detonator placer switches Mickey, because the new det.placers outside were actually operated by Westinghouse motors on short posts (same/similar to those used for Western Region motorised semaphore signals).

Yes i vaguely remember them Stevie and i knew you would know exactly what i meant.


Mickey

[Mickey]

From vague memory New Barnet South Box Up fast line colour light home signal red located just off the end of the Up fast line platform at New Barnet station (was) on the all metal bracket gantry (and quite a lot of metal from memory?) and was an interesting design of post on reflection, i believe 'the feathers' for the 'turn in' from Up fast to Up slow line was mounted beside the main aspects and not on top of the aspects as is more usually the case.

This colour light signal (controlled by New Barnet South Box) just off the end of the Up fast line platform was also Oakleigh Park's Up fast line colour distant signal single-yellow and also Cemetery's Up fast line outter colour light distant as well double-yellow so when Oakleigh Park pulled off Up the fast line that put a double-yellow in it and the New Barnet North Box Up fast line colour light home signal on the northern approach to New Barnet station went to a green and when Cemetery pulled off Up the fast line that put a green in it on the south end of New Barnet station.

What was going on a bit further south at Oakleigh Park was a red in Oakleigh Park's Up fast line colour light home signal nearly opposite the box was also Cemetery's Up fast line colour light distant signal a single-yellow and was also New Southgate's Up fast line colour light outter distant signal a double-yellow (New Southgate's inner distant signal was a motor operated semaphore signal beneath Cemetery's semaphore home signal) so by putting a green in the Oakleigh Park's Up fast line colour light home signal (nearly opposite Oakleigh Park box) Cemetery had pulled off Up the fast line and put a double-yellow in it and then New Southgate would then pull off Up the fast line towards Wood Green Up Box No.2 and put a green in it!!.

Mickey

[StevieG]

All correct except for a slight mix of memories re 'Barnet South' Mickey.

Although you could go Up Fast-to-Up Slow from BN59 at North Box, South box never controlled an UF to US route, although the box was still working when the new layout for the 1970 resignalling was laid in and clipped up out of use, including the future No.2166, UF facing to US, about 70 yards south of South Box.
The South box UF home (BS31) was a 'plain' (no 'feather' junction indicator) 4-aspect searchlight unit until the end, suspended from what looked like a donkeys' years-old lattice main post and right-hand bracket of GNR origin.

In the May/June 1970 resignalling it was replaced by NB506, which initially was evidently a 'pre-authorisation of electrification' structure, as it was a low R/H bracket with the standard 4-lens signal head on top, and a 'theatre' indicator to the left of that, which showed 'S' for the 2166 'turn-in' route, UF-to-US, but gave no indication for the high speed route straight Up the Fast.

But it wasn't all that long before it was replaced by a new NB506 taller R/H 'gallows'-type structure, with signal head above the 'six-foot' and Position 1 'feather', as you described Mickey, ready for the OLE wires to pass beneath it (and I've a feeling that, like K304 at the UF exit from Copenhagen Tunnel, that the 'feather' may actually have been at an angle more like 60 degrees from horizontal rather than the usual 45, in order to fit inside the safety cage round the signal head).

Although there are some 'people' references in this thread, I think the majority of its content, even prior to this post, firmly does not belong in the "LNER People" forum Mickey, so this is the last post I shall make here.] [ Richard/Administrators ? ]

[Mickey]

Yes your correct Stevie the Up fast to Up slow line 'turn in' at the south end of New Barnet station wasn't comissioned until the comissioning of the autumn of 1970 resignalling scheme which saw the 'switch panel' replace the lever frame in New Barnet North Box and both the closure of New Barnet South Box & Oakleigh Park (box) as well at the sametime, it's funny the things that you can forget mind you it was 45 years ago now, yes the Up fast line 'turn in' to Up slow line was controlled by New Barnet North Box as you point out, i remember that signal the Up fast line colour light home signal with the left-hand 'feathers' standing opposite the Up slow line colour light home signal, did they both have a set of 'feathers' reading to the Up Goods line as well?.

Mickey

I actually posted this post on the General Discussion page but it has remained on this page??.

[StevieG]

" .... Although there are some 'people' references in this thread, I think the majority of its content, even prior to this post, firmly does not belong in the "LNER People" forum Mickey, so this is the last post I shall make here.] [ Richard/Administrators ? ] "

Re my last comment above : That was posted to this topic (as is this post) in the "LNER People" forum.
I've now noticed that this topic title and thread, including the number of 'Replies', are repeating (being 'mirrored', it might be said) and equally visible/viewable in the "General LNER Discussion" forum (although latest posts are not indicated in the 'Last post' column there) : - I am confused!

[StevieG]

" .... yes the Up fast line 'turn in' to Up slow line was controlled by New Barnet North Box as you point out, i remember that signal the Up fast line colour light home signal with the left-hand 'feathers' standing opposite the Up slow line colour light home signal, did they both have a set of 'feathers' reading to the Up Goods line as well?.

Mickey

I actually posted this post on the General Discussion page but it has remained on this page??. "

[ This post is being done in the "General LNER Discussion" forum. ]

....The No.61 UF-US points were alongside ('in parallel with', you might say) the Nos.68/69 US-Up Goods points Mickey, so BN66 on the Slow had a Pos.1 to the UG (& for info., also No.72 position-light Call-On for when section occupied), and BN59 on the Fast only had a Pos.1, to the US.