Gresley Dia 186 Coach

[isleofthanet]

Hello,

On the SVR website where their stock is teak and interior seating is a brown moquette would this colour have been retained into BR days when the coaches were painted BR maroon?

Al

[jwealleans]

I'm sure the LNERCA chaps will comment on the condition of carriages when obtained from BR (although most might well have been converted for departmental use) but I'd be very surprised if an external repainting was accompanied by a reupholstering unless it was absolutely necessary.

An exception were those carriages fitted with the bucket seats, which I believe were replaced as they came up for refurbishment. I can't remember whether that applies to any D186 vehicles. The TTO on the NYMR (which I think is a D 186) still has what i believe to be the original pattern LNER seats.

[65447]

There's already a thread discussing the Dia. 186 carriages seating, started by Isle of Thanet earlier this year: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10729

Interior refurbishment clearly did take place, more frequently for prestige stock, but otherwise most likely when the stuffing had been knocked out of the seats and the coverings faded and worn. Unless there was a refurbishment programme for certain stock, then it would probably take place when a carriage was undergoing a major repair, such as one that required the exterior varnish to be stripped off and the teak panelling treated with acid to restore it's colour.

There was more likelihood of seeing BR pattern materials in carriages repainted into BR liveries, which may have been at the interval at which a refurbishment was necessary anyway. At the change to Maroon in 1956 onwards, LNER teak stock could be anything between 20 and 30 years old.

[sawdust]

Long day slaving over a hot beavertail, so not pleased to see this come up again!
Below are two views showing as close as is possible to the original finishes and colour scheme for TTO/BTO as is possible.
Rexine substitute made to match samples as found in 56856, 43567, 23956, 24109 & 43632.
Moquette found on some high back seats in 43567 and 23956. Pattern identified from Met Camm copy of GA., plus photos.
Seats are either original or else made to original works drawings.
There are two flavours of BTO/TTO bucket seat, inclined pedestal as produced here in 56856 which was only used in the 1938 cars and level pedestal used before 1938, which I believe RVP is intending to produce for their TTO at the GCR.

Post nationalisation refurbishments, loose the wall lights and sometimes the mirrors and coathooks. Colour scheme seems to generally be red below the waist (some may have been brown) with cream above the waist. High back seats with maroon moquette.

Sawdust.

[isleofthanet]

Thankyou for your valuable information much appreciated. What colour would the flooring be and would it be a type of industrial lino? One further thing I havent been able to find a colour photo of one of these coaches in service in maroon.

Al

[jwealleans]

I took my brother-in-law (from France) up the Moors and we were seated in the upper of the two carriages illustrated. He wouldn't believe it wasn't first class until I took him outside and showed him the '3' on the door.

[isleofthanet]

One further thing, would this coach be unlined in maroon?

[jwealleans]

All Gresley corridor stock in maroon would be lined, I believe.

There are colour pictures of maroon stock, I've seen them, but if you want an idea of the livery you could look at both Larry Goddard's and Gilbert Barnatt's threads on RMWeb? They both do their research thoroughly and Gilbert has his carriage spainted by Dave Studley, who is reckoned to be one of the best.

I wouldn't ever recommend copying a model, but I would be fairly confident in saying that theirs would be accurate.

[isleofthanet]

Thankyou

[65447]

Not entirely straight forward in that the Gresley teak-panelled stock profile did not fit well with the BR lining specification.

The waist-level lining should have been applied about a third of the way down between the beading at the bottom of the window line and the middle beading. However it was usually, but not always, applied to the top beading at waist level below the window line.

The lining above the windows on most coaches could be placed in the correct position. The Gresley windows were much higher to the cantrail (the top of the side where it meets the cornice at the bottom of the roof), so the upper lining line was often omitted on passenger stock and entirely on brake coaches due to the line of cantrail level toplights.

Better to study contemporary photographs rather than modelling interpretations.

[sawdust]

Thankyou for your valuable information much appreciated. What colour would the flooring be and would it be a type of industrial lino? One further thing I havent been able to find a colour photo of one of these coaches in service in maroon.

Al

The flooring was originally Korkoid, a mixture of rubber and granulated cork. This was brown in the saloon and vestibules and grey in the toilets. We have used a very similar modern product called Treadmaster TM4, which is the closest thing made today to Korkoid. (Source Met Camm drawings for brown and grey. Plus 23956 still had most of the original material down in the saloon, complete with bucket seat pedestal imprints!)

BR livery is not within my area of interest.

Sawdust.

[1H was 2E]

The post did query the moquette colour used when Gresley coaches were painted BR Maroon - which means after 1957.
Going by the LMS and BR standard coaches in my area, a standard moquette was used for retrims, and a particular pattern seemed to be used for for 5 - 10 years and by the end of the period uniformity had been almost achieved. At that stage there was a change to a new pattern, presumably to reflect changing fashions.
Railway office chairs when in need of re-trimming were sent to the nearest carriage works and came back in the current coach style; some retained their pattern after its disappearance from coaches.
The two earlier BR patterns I recall (though I don't know the order of appearance) were a design in maroon and beige with boomerang (or banana) shapes; and the pattern below:

[sawdust]

The post did query the moquette colour used when Gresley coaches were painted BR Maroon - which means after 1957.
Going by the LMS and BR standard coaches in my area, a standard moquette was used for retrims, and a particular pattern seemed to be used for for 5 - 10 years and by the end of the period uniformity had been almost achieved. At that stage there was a change to a new pattern, presumably to reflect changing fashions.
Railway office chairs when in need of re-trimming were sent to the nearest carriage works and came back in the current coach style; some retained their pattern after its disappearance from coaches.
The two earlier BR patterns I recall (though I don't know the order of appearance) were a design in maroon and beige with boomerang (or banana) shapes; and the pattern below:

That is not the maroon moquette that was on any of our high back seats, which was either a floral or leaf, one colour design.

Sawdust.