Howlden Brake Vehicle Roof Struts?

[Robpulham]

Hi Mike,

Is this the one that you are referring to?



Currently residing at Shildon. More photos on my Flickr site in the LNER and Constituents coaching stock album.

[MikeTrice]

Can I second a request for that photo?

Also have a look at the postcard on fleabay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mablethorpe-G ... 5b0597a863

[MikeTrice]

Thats the one Rob.

[john coffin]

Mike you are right about that photo and damn I have it somewhere, but my filing system is at this time rubbish I certainly did not
pay 42 quid for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What seems to me to be interesting is the impression that the torpedo vents appear to be mounted on those cross straps,
and I wonder whether it is related to the cut outs for the roof lights, but as we all know, there is so much in this area of knowledge
that we are missing.

Paul

[john coffin]

Actually of interest with the Mablethorpe photo is that the loco is I think a Stirling rebuild of a Hawthorn 0-4-2 like the infamous 112A which
carried eventually the small tender behind No 1 now.

It is strange that none of my ex works photos of 4 wheelers show these strips, and neither do the 6 wheel full brake ones I have.

Strange

Paul

[MikeTrice]

Managed to find an alternative image of Mablethorpe: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5236/586 ... c6c5_o.jpg

[MikeTrice]

And another interesting image: http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-adwick ... 34192.html

[john coffin]

Seems I was wrong about the loco, seems to be a 2-4-0

[Seagull]

Yes they did have skylights, however I would not expect cutting a hole for them to be an issue with strength.

Having experience of large steel structures and a little with smaller wooden ones I stand by what I said above.
Cutting (or leaving out) a hole in a surface MUST cause issues with strength - you are replacing structural material with fresh air.
It is the way that it is dealt with that matters.

In modern steel structures the issues are well understood and the ways of strengthening around openings equally well understood.
However even now I still get to see some really poor design details and some terrific cracks in otherwise strong steel structures.

Plus I have seen plenty of examples of wood (and steel) structures constructed even up to 20 years ago where they pretty much cut (or built) a hole in a solid structure or surface and did nothing to re-instate it's strength. Older stuctures (100+ years ago) were frequently built ignoring any common sense about compensating for openings. Have a look at HMS Victory in Portsmouth - the stern windows are lovely!

Wood is a great engineering material, but it has a few issues of it's own.
First no piece of wood is exactly like another.
Secondly it is greatly affected by enviromental conditions - it warps!
Thirdly older wooden structures usually feature lots of joints - any joint is potentially a weakness.

Add to that we are talking about a vehicle that is bounced down a railway track at 50+ mph.
Probably loaded (overloaded?) and unloaded with cargo frequently causing it to change shape.
And subjected to shock loads being hauled by a locomotive and shunted or even rough shunted.

I happily except that as discussed, the ribs serve another purpose, but they look suspiciously like strengthening ribs to me.

The clincher is the way they are fixed, If only lightly attached to the roof they serve some other purpose.
But if solidly fixed or incorporated into the roof then they are almost certainly for strengthening.

Alan

[Woodcock29]

Hi Silverfox

Would love to see any photos you can scan of the roofs or ends of Howlden stock as I have just embarked on a project to build a number of 4mm D&S kits of Howlden stock.

Woodcock29

[john coffin]

I agree with Seagull.

Thinking more about it over the weekend, it seems logical that they had experienced some problems with the long guards compartment 6 wheelers,
and needed to consolidate the strength.

Remember in the compartments you had at least 2 pairs of doors, possible another door opening too, and that for the ducket, all cause some
problems in the long run with twisting. GNR doors often pushed out on a track, and that too would have caused problems what with wood holding
metal rods and a track.

We will never know for sure, but it is likely that torsional movement of the roof was the real reason for these additions.

Paul

[Wavey]

One thing that puzzles me is why you would put strengthening struts on top of the roof boards? logically put strengtheners inside would me more sense.
Are there any extant General Arrangement drawings showing these as that would maybe explain what they are?

[MikeTrice]

Inside might impact headroom. I have not found a GA with them (yet).

[john coffin]

Certainly, I have found no drawings at York, even with the help of Humorist (thanks mate) which show these "strengtheners", but then i have not
found any full brake or other types of drawings either.

the more i look and think about it , the more I am convinced that they are supports. Why on the outside, well that is easy, I think, in that it would have impeded on the space inside and looked unsightly to the paying customers.

I have checked through my GNRS books produced by Terry Henderson and even a couple of the 45 ft bogie brakes NPCS have these "strengtheners"
whilst none of the saloons either 6 wheel or bigger, seem so to have, so it puts forward more thoughts about it being to support the rooves
where skylights are in place.

Mike at least one of the photos you sent me, is not precisely ex-works, in that it is not a new carriage, but recently recoated as it moved to GNR stock from ECJS.

Paul

[Seagull]

...logically put strengtheners inside would me more sense.

Agreed - potentially they would be more effective inside and it would make most sense on a new build or when doing a major roof repair.
On a partial repair it would be easier and cheaper to put them outside. Remember the GNR only spent money when they had to!

Maybe there was something bulky (stacked pigeon baskets? steamer trunks?) which was regularly carried and which just fitted inside.

When No 948 was stripped for refurbishment for the NRM in 1975, we were able to inspect the roof very closely and I can confirm that the struts appeared to have been an original fitting, unlike the vents and gas pots which we removed for the, as built, restoration.

Was there any evidence (holes, screws etc.) to associate them with say a change from oil to gas lighting or some other purpose?

Alan