Smoke Deflectors on A1/3s

[Graeme Leary]

Could anybody please let me know if Smoke Deflectors (usually known as - I understand - German style) were fitted pre-Nationalisation ie in LNER days on A1/3s.
I have looked at the many photos in Irwell Press's 'The Book of the A3' and photos in RCTS Part 2A but all appear to be BR with the 5 figure running number series starting with 60.
My query is to do with painting/renaming/renumbering (into an appropriate LNER name/number) a Hornby model of 'Brown Jack' in BR livery which has these 'German' style deflectors fitted.
Many thanks.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[jwealleans]

Those deflectors were introduced at the very end of the 1950s at the initiative of the then King's Cross shedmaster, Peter Townend. IIRC only 'Humorist' carried deflectors before the war and those were in several very different forms.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks. Would you know if one of these pre-war Humorist smoke deflector variations was the German style as modelled by Hornby (and was its tender at that time what I understand to be the GNR type - with the slightly lower sides and coal rails?) Also I presume it would have gone through a Wartime Black phase with either NE or LNER on the tender. If answer to these 'yes', simple matter for me for my repainting/naming/numbering project to use Humorist - which quite appeals.
Graeme

[Hatfield Shed]

...My query is to do with painting/renaming/renumbering (into an appropriate LNER name/number) a Hornby model of 'Brown Jack' in BR livery which has these 'German' style deflectors fitted...

The deflector used was of a pattern I have seen described as both 'Wagner' and 'Witte'. Richard Wagner (no, not the outsize operatic orgiast, but another) was the effective equivalent of Robert Riddles in the UK as the standardiser of German steam power design, and appears to have been something of an Anglophile; was made a member of the RSA, addressed the Inst. of Loco Engineers etc. Witte was his successor. Whether this had anything to do with the choice of deflector design is unclear.

As mentioned above there had been earlier ineffectual experiments with small deflectors before the sole A3 that the LNER fitted with a Kylchap ejector was given a set of 'full size' plates, not dissimilar to what was used on the post-war A1 and A2 classes, and retained these thereafter. Incredibly enough, when the A3s were generally fitted with the Kylchap ejector - the visible sign of which was a change to a double chimney - the ineffectual experiment with mini smokebox mounted deflectors was repeated on 60061, despite the earlier lack of success on the Kylchap equipped A3, and various of the Thompson A2 pacifics.

Peter Townend, involvement as already mentioned, observed that the deflector pattern eventually fitted to most of the A3s worked better than the 'full size plates' on the A1 and 9F, as a sequence of three trains worked by examples of these classes went by, and cites a loco inspectors appraisal of the deflectors effectiveness. (Top Shed, P.N. Townend.)

[JASd17]

Many thanks. Would you know if one of these pre-war Humorist smoke deflector variations was the German style as modelled by Hornby (and was its tender at that time what I understand to be the GNR type - with the slightly lower sides and coal rails?) Also I presume it would have gone through a Wartime Black phase with either NE or LNER on the tender. If answer to these 'yes', simple matter for me for my repainting/naming/numbering project to use Humorist - which quite appeals.
Graeme

Humorist never carried the 'German' type smoke deflectors. It had several different types pre-war. It also had a round dome boiler up to 1946. It always had a GN style tender. It carried black livery between 1942 and 1946.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks to all. Back to the drawing boards (but at least I can avoid buying the Hornby 'Brown Jack' model with the 'German' style deflectors). Still after a GNR tender though ...............
Graeme Leary

[Graeme Leary]

PS: to my last post. Have just been browsing through the forum and came across more or less the same question I asked back in June 2014. Apologies to those of you who responded to this earlier one and had already given me the information then.

[Sir Nigel Gresley]

...My query is to do with painting/renaming/renumbering (into an appropriate LNER name/number) a Hornby model of 'Brown Jack' in BR livery which has these 'German' style deflectors fitted...

The deflector used was of a pattern I have seen described as both 'Wagner' and 'Witte'. Richard Wagner (no, not the outsize operatic orgiast, but another) was the effective equivalent of Robert Riddles in the UK as the standardiser of German steam power design, and appears to have been something of an Anglophile; was made a member of the RSA, addressed the Inst. of Loco Engineers etc. Witte was his successor. Whether this had anything to do with the choice of deflector design is unclear.

Just for the record:

DR (East German) 01 204 with original Wagner deflectors.



DB (West German) 01 111 (now preserved) with post-war Witte deflectors.

[Graeme Leary]

There I go, contradicting myself again as I in fact have gone ahead and bought (at a good price) aforementioned "Brown Jack' model which I reckon with a bit of judicious cutting, scraping and filing - and maybe a little brute force for good measure, I can remove the smoke deflectors (the brute force part), the double chimney (either replacing it or paring it down to a single and using a little filler) and paint in Wartime Black and rename/renumber as Flamingo/95 as clearly shown on p48 of 'The Book of the A3 Pacifics'. The purists may well be aghast but it seems to me this photo is as good a reference for the to work from and the real bonus for me on a closer look is that 'Flamingo' has the same elongated banjo (??)dome as the 'Brown Jack' model I am 'emasculating'. The one 'fly in the ointment though is the rod - does it control the pressure? - that is on the left side of the model but appears to be on the right side of Flamingo in the p48 photo. The other option, again a reference to the Book of A3 Pacifics is on p45 showing 56/Centenary with single chimney (which I can adapt or replace),the elongated dome AND the rods on the same side as my model but which says 'after Centenary was restored to apple green livery'. Would Centenary during its Black livery period (10/42-9/47) have been the same, other than the double chimney?
As always, all comments gratefully welcome (and as well as Flamingo and Centenary, the other names I have to play with for this Wartime Black project are Sandwich, Grand Parade and Humorist).
Graeme Leary

[silverfox]

Graeme,

Apologies for not yet replying. but have mislaid the original answer!!
Will get back to you asap and have some deflector info as well

Ron