A3 Spion Kop

[Sea Eagle]

Hello all

I wonder if somebody could shed some light on a livery question. I believe that the attached photo of King's Cross A3 Spion Kop was taken in 1948. The locomotive appears to be in apple green livery - note the lining on the buffer beam and possibly also traces on the cab. It is also carrying shaded numbering which I'm guessing was applied following a general overhaul in March 1947 - this would have been shortly before Doncaster switched to the unshaded style.
My question concerns the tender. It does not appear to have any lettering. I know that some LNER locos and A3s in particular ran without any tender lettering in early BR days, but had assumed that this was always after renumbering to the BR scheme. Is it possible that Spion Kop would have been running with the LNER numbering it received in March 1947, but without tender lettering, or is it more likely that the tender is so encrusted in grime that the lettering is not visible?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I'd like to attribute the photo, but I can't remember the source. I think it might be "Ninety Years on: The New Book of the A3 Pacifics" by Peter Coster.

Many thanks

[giner]

Can't help with your query, Sea Eagle, but just wanted to say thanks for a great photo of Spion Kop on the up main at Langley Troughs.

[jwealleans]

It may be the photo, but it looks to me as if the buffer beam number has been cleaned. It may be that the cabside has also been done and it's just accumulated grime on the tender sides concealing the lettering.

[Sea Eagle]

It may be the photo, but it looks to me as if the buffer beam number has been cleaned. It may be that the cabside has also been done and it's just accumulated grime on the tender sides concealing the lettering.

Thanks for your thoughts. You could well be correct about accumulated grime, as there does not appear to be any evidence of lining on the tender either. On other A3 photos I've seen where there is definitely no tender lettering the lining is clearly visible.

This is a great photo - I just wish I could remember the source so that I could properly attribute it.

[S.A.C. Martin]

I can't see any lining aside from on the buffer beam - the wheel sets, cartazzi and frames are not just grimy, they are genuinely black. This looks like a variant of the wartime black livery to me. Not even the cylinders, which are relatively clean, show any lining. So to me that's wartime black with shaded numerals and probably lettering on the tender but married with a lined out buffer beam - a combination seen before on other LNER loco classes.

[Sea Eagle]

[quote="S.A.C. Martin"]I can't see any lining aside from on the buffer beam - the wheel sets, cartazzi and frames are not just grimy, they are genuinely black. This looks like a variant of the wartime black livery to me. Not even the cylinders, which are relatively clean, show any lining. So to me that's wartime black with shaded numerals and probably lettering on the tender but married with a lined out buffer beam - a combination seen before on other LNER loco classes.[/quote.

Simon, I'm not so sure. I think this photo was taken after Spion Kop's March 1947 general overhaul when she was restored to apple green. Note the later type of middle cylinder cover which would have been a post war modification. It might be wishful thinking, but I'm sure I can make out lining on the lower edge of the cab and also where the cab joins the firebox. Might also just be a trace on the leading edge of the outside cylinder cover. The quality of the photo is not great, but the areas around the numbers do appear to be cleaner than anywhere else on either the loco or the tender, and there does seem to be a colour difference between the smokebox and boiler cladding.

[JASd17]

I think Sea Eagle is right. No. 98 is in green despite the look of the paintwork.

The front end middle cylinder cover plate has been modified, this can only have happened during its early 1947 General repair, if the assertion in RCTS Part 2A is correct, that this was generally applied from February 1947, when 98 was in the works.

It was the last green loco to receive shaded letters and numbers.

The loco would have run in this condition until September 1948 when it went into the works for its next General, and emerged with a BR number.

John

[S.A.C. Martin]

Simon, I'm not so sure. I think this photo was taken after Spion Kop's March 1947 general overhaul when she was restored to apple green. Note the later type of middle cylinder cover which would have been a post war modification.

May well have been a post-war modification but unless you can date that specifically I'm not sure it contributes to an argument either way as to whether the engine is green or black.

It might be wishful thinking, but I'm sure I can make out lining on the lower edge of the cab and also where the cab joins the firebox. Might also just be a trace on the leading edge of the outside cylinder cover. The quality of the photo is not great, but the areas around the numbers do appear to be cleaner than anywhere else on either the loco or the tender, and there does seem to be a colour difference between the smokebox and boiler cladding.

The lower half of the boiler cladding is cleaner than the top half and there's no lining present there, which surely would prove it to be an apple green loco?

Colour differences between boiler and smokebox are quite common. The smokebox may not have been cleaned at all but the boiler given a marginal rub down.

I can't say I agree on the cylinder but I note the running plate though grimy doesn't show any sign of lining throughout its length either. The way the numbers have been cleaned - are we suggesting the cleaners very carefully did just the numerals and left the area around the numerals grimy? Because that doesn't really make sense to me.

I'd say that was 1947 and pre-repaint into apple green - the middle cylinder cover modification could reasonably have been applied any time from the end of the war up until 1947 and without dating that component I think it would be difficult to use that as a basis for an argument that the loco is green.

Just my two cents - though I do see what you mean about the cab, I'm not sure that shows lining out myself. Happy to be proven wrong.

[Dave]

I agree with Sea Eagle and JASd17, when you enlarge the photo (which is of poor quality) you can see the vestiges of lining to the side and front of the cab, as well as the buffer beam, and add to that the middle cyl cover I will go with lined green in a very dirty condition.

[Sea Eagle]

Thanks for all the replies I appreciate everybody's input. After generating the debate on Spion Kop however I've decided that it's not going to be my next A3 model after all. This is mainly because I've been unable to fettle to my satisfaction the dreadfully assembled "Book Law" body which I'd intended to use as a donor. I managed to straighten the front of the running plate, but despite a complete, painstaking and nerve wracking dismantling of the rear end I just could not sort out the alignment of the S curve, the firebox and the (replacement) cab. This model is really not the manufacturer's finest moment! Rather than consign £150's worth of loco to the scrap bin or the auction site I've decided that it's going to become 60085 "Manna" as running in late 1948/49. This really does have an interesting livery variation. Hopefully will be able to post some photos on the model railways section of the Forum once it's finished. I'm using a USA tour edition Flying Scotsman body as the basis for the model, mated to the Book Law chassis and tender. Oh - and at least the Book Law buffer beam will find a new home!

[52D]

Just had a thought, I wonder if the lining is visible on Earl Marischall from the Scottish Video I posted a while back. The scene is towards the end of the film. viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11025