Does anyone know of any proposed designs that were never built?

[Pebbles]

I believe that the model is 7mm and a conversion from an ACE V1 with minimal mods. As it appears they were designed to replace or supplement class R1s their tankr capacity may not have been an issue. As it was cheap O4s won the day.

[1H was 2E]

I much preferred big freight locos to other types of engine, and the 2-8-2T, 4-8-0T and 0-8-4T types seemed the ultimate in brutish power. Too young to see any LNW ones or even the NER ones, but nearly cleared the 7200/7220s.
But the 2-8-2T doesn't look as big as you might expect - I wonder how it compares to drawings?
By way of comparison, the GW 2-8-2Ts had 6t coal & 2500 galls (some were later 5T + 2700, suggesting water more of a problem than coal) but they were use on runs much longer than 25 miles - coal from S. Wales to London and to the West. Being surprised by one on Salisbury shed, I was told that was a regular working, too. Interestingly, they lost long distance work when large numbers of WDs became available.
In the case of both the LNW and GW types, braking didn't seem to be an issue - they both handled train loads similar to 8-coupled tender locos over the same routes. Both types (and the track) suffered due to their length, and it seems that the greater water capacity of the 72s over the 42s was negated by leaks in the connecting pipes caused by stress when negotiating curves.

[Pyewipe Junction]

I believe that the model is 7mm and a conversion from an ACE V1 with minimal mods. As it appears they were designed to replace or supplement class R1s their tankr capacity may not have been an issue. As it was cheap O4s won the day.

Presumably some of these were the 'cheap O4s' that slugged it out on this route with maximum reliability and minimum maintenance until just about the end of steam in the ER. I doubt that it would have been possible to claim the same for any Gresley 3-cylinder design.

It's also worth noting that both the M1s and the Robinson L1s were designed for the LDECR route, but replaced by tender engines.

Perhaps a 2-8-2T might have been better suited for work in the Fife coalfields.

[manna]

G'day Gents

Re the 2-8-2 tanks, they might have been very useful moving empty coaches out of Kings Cross

In
East Coast Pacific's at Work' by P. N. Townend, on page 97, there is a proposed Thompson Pacific, that looks like a Gresley A3 but with 6'2" driving wheels and a six wheel tender.........might give that one a try one day.

Also in the same book there are the proposed Ivatt 2-6-2 and 4-6-2 tender engines for the GNR.

manna

[Hatfield Shed]

For the heaviest KX ECS turns, Peter Townend wrote that he requested a 42xx allocation as he felt that of the available locomotives in service on BR this showed the best potential. ('Top Shed' p122.)

I too have gone the 'P3' route, a very pretty and entirely possible loco.

[Manxman1831]

My model of one of Peppercorns proposed replacements from February 1946 - 4-8-2 with Cock o' the North style front-end.

[giner]

Like! What did you name her?

[Manxman1831]

Like! What did you name her?

Called her "Knight of St George" - photo was taken on what was to be her last run on the up lines at Ruddington model railway, there is quite a bad kink on the curve after a bridge (known locally as 50steps bridge) which has caused some serious derailments with this loco, so I've decided that rather than trying to fix the problem, it would be easier to have her run on the down lines.

[sturrock]

Re-proposed designs. There are references in various books, mainly as secondary sources, of proposals either only as ideas reported from CMEs (or their equivalents), or tentative essays by drawing offices exploring possibilities. These often were directed by CMEs, but not always.( note Thompsons 0 8 0T of 1930 for the former GER)
Here is a list from various indicated sources. Some show detailed drawings, others merely specifications, and still others simply a reported conversation or even rumour!
At the end of the list I include a bibliography.
I repeat, some references may only be rumour or hearsay, and this list cannot therefore possibly pretend to be complete in accuracy of fact! (or of course on another level, omissions.)
In addition interesting details of locomotive policy and various proposals are given in RCTS “Locomotives of the LNER” Part 10A P52-59.

2 6 2T Ivatt GNR 1907 I/C replaced by N1. Ref- Hughes (op.cit) P 81.
2 6 2 Ivatt GNR 1907 MT Sim.to C/pound C1 Atlantic.Replaced. by 5’8 0 6 0.
Ref- Haresnape P 7.Barnes P18.
4 6 0 Reid NBR 1907 Belpaire C10 boiler. Sim.CR “Cardean” Ref- Barnes P 16.
2 6 0 Robinson GCR 1911 O/C Mixed traffic. Ref-Tuplin Facing P 49.
0 8 0 Reid NBR 1912 Heavy mineral. Extended J35. Ref-?
2 10 2 Baldwin/Robinson GCR 1914 Heavy mineral. Ref- Barnes P 30.
4 4 0 Gresley GNR 1914 “GCR Director” size. K2 boiler? Ref- Hughes P59.
2 6 2 Gresley GNR 1915 Projected 6’8 abandoned. Ref-Hughes P29.Haresnape P10.
4 6 2 Gresley GNR 1915 4 cyl Pacific.Wide firebox.Ref-Hughes P30 Haresnape P8.
Barnes P32 Armstrong P24-5.
4 6 2 Gresley GNR 1915 4 cyl Pacific. Narrow firebox. Ref-RCTS Part 2A P 5.
2 8 0 Chalmers NBR 1917 Poss. C11 boiler. Heavy mineral. Ref-?
2 6 2T Gresley GNR 1919 3 cyl for Lond. suburban. Repl. by N2.Ref-Armstrong P36.
2 6 4T Gresley GNR 1919 Dev.above,abandoned. Ref-Armstrong P36.HaresnapeP13.
Also drawing dated Dec.1925 RCTS Part9A P14.
0 8 0T Gresley GNR 1919 3 cyl superheated heavy shunting/transfer freight(?)
Ref-Hughes P87-8,Haresnape P13.
4 6 2 Gresley GNR 1920 Drawing of A1(A10) with GN cab. Ref-Haresnape P9.
2 6 0 Gresley LNER 1924 Goods K3 5’2. Repl. by J38-39 Ref-Hughes P76-77
Armstrong P39-40.
4 4 0 Gresley LNER 1927 Smith C/pound D 49. Ref-RCTS Part 4 P90.
4 4 0 Gresley LNER 1927 V6 uniflow D49. Ref- RCTS Part 4 P95-97.
2 6 4T Gresley LNER 1927 Southend service.6’2 wheels.Unusually 2 O/C.
Ref-ArmstrongP46, RCTS Part9A P 14.
4 6 0 Gresley LNER 1927 For GE section.6’8, D49 v/gear sim. to later B16/2,taper
boiler, abandoned for B17. Ref-RCTS Part 2B P93.
4 6 2/4 6 4 GresleyLNER 1927,1928. Early proposals for W1 compound.
Ref RCTS Part6C P136-138.
2 6 0 Gresley LNER c1930 K3 300psi watertube boiler. Ref-HughesP68.BarnesP50.
2 6 4 4 GresleyLNER 1930 6’2 K3 with booster bogie under cab sim to C9.
Ref-Hughes P68-9.
Armstrong P69-70.
4 6 0 Gresley LNER c1930-35? Large 4 6 0. Pacific front end.Taper boiler.
Ref-Hughes P62.Details RCTS Part10A P53-4
Drawing dated Nov.1936-RCTS Part10A P62.
0 8 0T Thompson LNER ? 1930 Unofficial sub. tank for GE sect.4’8 I/C Condensing.
Ref-RCTS Part 10A P54-5,63.
2 8 2T Gresley LNER 1929-31 Various coal transfer. Six variations.
Ref-RCTS Part 10A P52-3,60-61
Long version-Barnes P52.Hughes P89.
Short version-Hughes P89.HaresnapeP13.
0 8 2 Gresley LNER 1932 Diesel/compr. air, based on R1 frame. Ref-Barnes P58
2 8 2 Gresley LNER 1933 Unstreamlined “Cock O’ the North’ Ref-Hughes P34.
2 8 0 Gresley LNER 1934 5’2 W.Highlands. Repl. by K4. Ref-RCTS Part6A P145.
2 6 2 Gresley LNER 1934 V2 proposed with early‘Cock O’ the North’ streamlining.
Ref- Hughes P38.
2 6 2 Gresley LNER 1934 V2 with A4 type streamlining. Ref- Hughes P38.
4 6 2 Gresley LNER 1934-5 Proposals leading to A4. Ref-RCTS Part2A P206-208.
Haresnape P16.
Barnes P64.
0 6 0 Gresley LNER 1938 Modern rebuilt J21 for light lines. Ref-RTCF Part5 P132.
4 6 2T Gresley LNER 1939 Proposed MT tank. Marked firmly”no” by Gresley.
Ref-RCTS Part ?
4 8 2 Gresley LNER 1939 Extended A3.250psi,larger cyls. Ref-RCTS Part10A P62.
Hughes Frontispiece&P39.
2 6 4T Gresley LNER 1941 Tank V4. 2 &3 cyls drawn up.Taper b,wide firebox.
Ref-RCTS Part9A P 13-14.
4 6 0 Thompson LNER 1943 Rebuilt 5’8 B7 sim.to B3/3.Ref- RCTS Part2B P166
4 4 0 Thompson LNER 1943 Proposed light MT 4 4 0 6’2 wheels 200psi.
Ref-RCTS Part10A P63.
4 6 2 Peppercorn LNER 1946-8 Eight proposals for A1, inc.one with”Cock O’
the North” and 3 with A4 type streamlining.Ref-RCTS Part2A P214-217.
4 8 4 Peppercorn LNER 1946 Large 6’8 8 wheel express. Ref-RCTS Part10A P64.
Hughes P43-44.
4 8 2 Peppercorn LNER 1946 Large 6’8 8 wheel express. Ref- RCTS Part10A P65.
Hughes P43-44.
4 8 4 Peppercorn LNER 1946 6’8 8 wheel express. A4 type streamlining.
Ref-RCTS Part10A P64,Hughes P43-44
2 6 0 Peppercorn LNER 1947 ‘K6’Light MT. Ref-RCTS Part10A P65,Hughes P78-9
4 8 2 Harrison LNER/BR? 1948 6’4 8 wheel express.Ref-Hughes P44.
4 8 2 Harrison LNER/BR? 1948 6’4 Chapelon inspired 4cyl C/pound.400psi.
Ref-Hughes P44.
Abbreviations-

I/C = inside cylinders.
O/C =outside cylinders.
C/pound = compound expansion.
v/gear = valvegear.
MT = Mixed traffic/fast goods.
psi = pounds per sq. inch.
6’8 etc.=driving wheel diameter in feet & inches.
‘8 wheel’ here= 8 driving wheels.




Note-
i. For clarity many early references use later LNER classification rather than original pre-grouping ones.
ii. I confess that in the case of the two NBR 8 wheel coal engines of 1912 & 1917, I can’t seem to find my references, I know it was to do with the GlenFarg trials, but the reference eludes me! Against my better judgement I include them. -and I know later reference to 1939 4 6 2T is right because I remember Gresley’s reported emphatic pencilled “no”!

Bibliography-

Armstrong,Jim “LNER Locomotive Development.” Peco Publishing 1974.
Barnes,Robin “Locomotives That Never Were.” Janes 1985.
Haresnape,Brian “Gresley Locomotives.” Ian Allen 1981.
Hughes,Geoffrey “The Gresley Influence.” Ian Allen 1983
Tuplin,W.A.”Great Central Steam.” George Allen & Unwin 1967.
“Locomotives of the LNER.”(shown as RCTS) Parts 1 to 11 as listed. Various dates. -The Railway Correspondence and Travel Society Publications.

Further note to Moderators.
I have for some time collated notes and drawings on this topic for my own casual amusement.(some people do crossword puzzles!) With the apparent interest shown I have been encouraged to share it. I am 80 years old and the machinations of “the net” discourage me somewhat---
I have built and am building up detailed notes on the above list, both listing what has been presented, and my interpretations of this together with drawings of what they may have looked like. I am careful to do this using my understanding of the prevailing policies, and utilization of standard details and “how it probably would have been done”. I am no trained draughtsman, but by judicious use of a copying machine that up-scales and reduces, together with actual ‘cut and pasting’, redrafting and re-copying, have come up with a score or so ‘drawings’. Although some details may not satisfy an engineer, I believe that they are more than adequate to give an impression of how they may have looked. If you think there may be any interest you could let me know on my e-mail address jjhilton@internode.on.net .I would be happy to forward other details.
Jonathan.

[Chris Grouse]

It's also worth noting that both the M1s and the Robinson L1s were designed for the LDECR route, but replaced by tender engines.

I was told by a reliable source that the Robinson L1's were quickly moved away from the LDEC lines as their brakes were woefully inadequate for the unfitted coal trains they were designed for. They were moved south to Neasden and Woodford eventually for pick up goods and local passenger work.

Chris

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all

A story in the green book says that a driver remarked that the L1 would be better with the side tanks filled with sand.

Many of the L1's were used in banking up to Dunford Bridge after their replacement by tender engines.

Earlswood nob

[1H was 2E]

Was not the postwar L1 class also intended for use on freight trains, but similarly found to be grossly inadequate in the stopping them department? On this occasion learning from history would not have required much effort to look up how previous similar designs fared,,,

[Rlangham]

There were a number of proposed electrics to be built by the North Eastern Railway, one, an 0-6-0 based on an old tender that looked like a Class 08 diesel, was actually built. Also here's an interesting snippet from my book on the North Eastern Railway in the First World War:

In November 1917 and in June 1918 meetings were held by the Association of Railway Mechanical Engineers attended by the Chief
Mechanical Engineers of most of the railways in Great Britain to discuss the possibility of three standard classes of locomotives to be
built across all railways – the categories for the engine classes would be passenger, goods and mineral. The CME of the North Eastern Railway, Vincent Raven, was unable to attend due to his war work with the Ministry of Munitions and so acting CME Arthur Stamer attended on behalf of both the North Eastern Railway and the Great Northern Railway, as Nigel Gresley was also unable to attend. This forward thinking idea unfortunately did not result in any standard classes (this would not be attempted until after the formation of British Railways in 1948 when ‘Standard Class’ locomotives were designed and built to various power categories and for different uses). However, the meetings did result in George Heppell, the Chief Draughtsman of the North Eastern Railway, being asked to look into the design of three standard classes of locomotives, ideally with duplication of parts where possible for standardisation between the three.

This was something not done by the South Eastern & Chatham Railway as noted by Heppell when their Chief Draughtsman visited him to compare designs. Of the three designs, two were built and entered service – the mineral locomotive was the T3 Class, an 0-8-0 three cylinder tender engine, and five were ordered in May 1918. Owing to the war it was not until October 1919 that the first completed T3 left Darlington Works, number 901 which is now preserved nearby at Darlington North Road Museum. The goods engine was to be the S3, a 4-6-0 which was successfully used for many years on both goods and passenger traffic. The first order for the S3 Class was placed in November 1918, but again did not enter service until 1919. The passenger engine design was designated the S4 but was never built – despite Heppell’s confidence about the design it is unlikely that it would have compared well with the large passenger express locomotives later built by the North Eastern Railway and then London & North Eastern Railway.

[Hatfield Shed]

...I have for some time collated notes and drawings on this topic for my own casual amusement.(some people do crossword puzzles!) With the apparent interest shown I have been encouraged to share it. I am 80 years old and the machinations of “the net” discourage me somewhat...

Just catching up with this thread after some time away, and wanted to acknowledge this first post. 'The net'- or rather the netizens - can be wayward indeed, but a post of this quality will I feel always be met with gratitude on this site, and I hope you feel encouraged to venture more as you feel appropriate.

[Rlangham]

A look through Ken Hoole's 'Electric Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway' has provided more details on the electric locomotive I couldn't recall - it was the Bevel Drive locomotive, apparently it was actually built and a photo exists, somewhere, of the inside of the cab but that is it. There is a side profile drawing of it in the book but that is it, i'd be interested if anyone has front/rear views as may be an interesting, fairly simple scratchbuild