Can anyone please tell me the height over gold used for the A4 buffer beam lettering? LNER standard was 4 1/2" however the style of the A4 lettering suggests it is taller.
I also note that the preserved A4s all have red to the right and black below, which seems odd when mounted on a black background. Usually the LNER substituted brown for the black for transfers on black engines. So I wonder, which is correct?
A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Adding to the above it looks as if the Silver livery A4s had 4 1/2" lettering so my question is aimed at the Garter Blue and LNER Green versions where shaded lettering was used.
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john coffin
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
There are some clues in Vol 2A of the Green Un Mike.
PP116 at top says that originally 2509-12 originally ran without any front identification, for about 9 months on introduction.
The usual form was then put on, but late in summer 1937, 2509/11/12 were changed for a larger type. (but no dimensions)
pp117 livery of 5 locos 4488-4492 were painted Garter Blue The front end numbers were displayed in aluminium without any
shading.
4498 came out in January 1939 with larger unshaded Gill sans numbers at the front end.
There are a couple of other books which might show more, including one I do not have, the Ian Allan series of books on the A4
and a book about the Streaks which I have not yet found in my library.
HTH
Paul
PP116 at top says that originally 2509-12 originally ran without any front identification, for about 9 months on introduction.
The usual form was then put on, but late in summer 1937, 2509/11/12 were changed for a larger type. (but no dimensions)
pp117 livery of 5 locos 4488-4492 were painted Garter Blue The front end numbers were displayed in aluminium without any
shading.
4498 came out in January 1939 with larger unshaded Gill sans numbers at the front end.
There are a couple of other books which might show more, including one I do not have, the Ian Allan series of books on the A4
and a book about the Streaks which I have not yet found in my library.
HTH
Paul
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Seagull
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
On page 55 of the Big Four in Colour there is a large picture of a new 4495 Golden Fleece fresh out of the paint shop.
It has large silver numbers on the front. The unshaded 'aluminium' colour used on the Coronation and West Riding engines.
The right front buffer in the picture measures 11mm and the adjacent 'N' measures 5.5mm
If the buffer is 15" that makes the N and numbers 7.5" tall.
The small 'o' of No. scales as 4" diameter and the full stop and lines making up the letters appear to be 1 1/4" - 1 3/8" thick.
Re. the shading on preservation engines. I can attest that getting specialist artwork made up for transfers/signs is expensive.
I wonder if the black shading used is because it would too be expensive to get one set of numbers made up with brown shading just for the black front of an A4
Edit: Just finished a quick look through The Streaks by Roger Mannion. Pages 99 to 105 talk about liveries/numbers but do not make any mention of dimensions. I have not gone through the picture captions though so there could still be something hidden there.
Alan
It has large silver numbers on the front. The unshaded 'aluminium' colour used on the Coronation and West Riding engines.
The right front buffer in the picture measures 11mm and the adjacent 'N' measures 5.5mm
If the buffer is 15" that makes the N and numbers 7.5" tall.
The small 'o' of No. scales as 4" diameter and the full stop and lines making up the letters appear to be 1 1/4" - 1 3/8" thick.
Re. the shading on preservation engines. I can attest that getting specialist artwork made up for transfers/signs is expensive.
I wonder if the black shading used is because it would too be expensive to get one set of numbers made up with brown shading just for the black front of an A4
Edit: Just finished a quick look through The Streaks by Roger Mannion. Pages 99 to 105 talk about liveries/numbers but do not make any mention of dimensions. I have not gone through the picture captions though so there could still be something hidden there.
Alan
Last edited by Seagull on Sun May 10, 2015 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Playing trains, but trying to get serious
Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Thank you gents. Frustrating isn't it?
I think the preserved engines are all handpainted so the colours are down to them. It is my belief that Mallard's are not tall enough. Unfortunately everyone else appears to have copied them.
I think the preserved engines are all handpainted so the colours are down to them. It is my belief that Mallard's are not tall enough. Unfortunately everyone else appears to have copied them.
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john coffin
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Still looking for my copy of Nock's LNER pacifics, but not sure whether that has any more detail either.
I agree Mike, this is one of the major frustrations for those of us creating things pre grouping, let alone only 80 years ago>
Paul
I agree Mike, this is one of the major frustrations for those of us creating things pre grouping, let alone only 80 years ago>
Paul
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Seagull
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Finished looking through The Streaks book.
There are a couple of comments about tender lettering and stainless strips on pages 95-7 but again no sizes.
There is one very interesting comment on page 160 re the numbering in very early BR days.
The shots of the silver (wth the exception of page 51) and green engines all definately show smaller size numbers. I would say almost certainly the same size as the normal green engines.
The shots of the original blue engines and the late pre-war shots end of 1938 to 1939 all show larger numbers - roughly half the height of the buffers (7.5").
A few oddities in the pictures;-
Page 51 Silver Fox July 1937 (still in silver livery) appears to have the large numbers.
Page 103 Kestrel 4485 picture states Sept 1939 but it must be 1937. Green livery and small numbers
Page 112 Falcon 4484 picture states Aug 1939 but it must be 1937. Green livery small numbers.
Page 117 Quicksilver 2510 picture states Oct 1936, it's a front end shot so impossible to tell the livery. But they are the small numbers.
Page 128 Woodcock 4493 picture states Aug 1937, she would be one month old in green livery and she looks it in the picture. The numbers are undoubtedly large size but appear to be shaded (gold?) not plain silver.
I can't prove it, but I suspect that up to 4489 Woodcock (Dominion of Canada) they had small numbers at the front in the colour that matched the livery.
From the repainting of 4489 they had large numbers, silver for the blue engines and probably gold shaded for at least some of the last green engines.
After that as they all went blue the numbers changed to silver.
I'm busy the next few weeks so someone else will have to disprove that theory!
Happy hunting.
Alan
Edit:- Just had a quick look through Yeadons. He states that 2512 Silver Fox had a general repair Sep-Nov 1937 (the time she was repainted blue) name plates fitted and numbers added to front buffer beam.
However in the picture on page 51 of The Streaks there are clearly no nameplates and she has large numbers on the buffer beam. Were these applied when she had a light repair Apr/May 1937, the time 4489 was renamed. If so this fits with my theory and would make her one of the first engines to get the large numbers.
Alan
There are a couple of comments about tender lettering and stainless strips on pages 95-7 but again no sizes.
There is one very interesting comment on page 160 re the numbering in very early BR days.
The pictures in the book show a range of number sizes but no mention of dimensions.The first members of the class to carry the BR number....... had the numbers on the buffer beam in the normal LNER position, painted in 7.5 in(ch) silver-white numerals.
The shots of the silver (wth the exception of page 51) and green engines all definately show smaller size numbers. I would say almost certainly the same size as the normal green engines.
The shots of the original blue engines and the late pre-war shots end of 1938 to 1939 all show larger numbers - roughly half the height of the buffers (7.5").
A few oddities in the pictures;-
Page 51 Silver Fox July 1937 (still in silver livery) appears to have the large numbers.
Page 103 Kestrel 4485 picture states Sept 1939 but it must be 1937. Green livery and small numbers
Page 112 Falcon 4484 picture states Aug 1939 but it must be 1937. Green livery small numbers.
Page 117 Quicksilver 2510 picture states Oct 1936, it's a front end shot so impossible to tell the livery. But they are the small numbers.
Page 128 Woodcock 4493 picture states Aug 1937, she would be one month old in green livery and she looks it in the picture. The numbers are undoubtedly large size but appear to be shaded (gold?) not plain silver.
I can't prove it, but I suspect that up to 4489 Woodcock (Dominion of Canada) they had small numbers at the front in the colour that matched the livery.
From the repainting of 4489 they had large numbers, silver for the blue engines and probably gold shaded for at least some of the last green engines.
After that as they all went blue the numbers changed to silver.
I'm busy the next few weeks so someone else will have to disprove that theory!
Happy hunting.
Alan
Edit:- Just had a quick look through Yeadons. He states that 2512 Silver Fox had a general repair Sep-Nov 1937 (the time she was repainted blue) name plates fitted and numbers added to front buffer beam.
However in the picture on page 51 of The Streaks there are clearly no nameplates and she has large numbers on the buffer beam. Were these applied when she had a light repair Apr/May 1937, the time 4489 was renamed. If so this fits with my theory and would make her one of the first engines to get the large numbers.
Alan
Last edited by Seagull on Tue May 12, 2015 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Playing trains, but trying to get serious
Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
A quibble maybe, but in the case of A4s (plus W1 and two B17s for a time), strictly speaking the number was on the streamlined casing and not on the buffer-beam proper which was actually behind it.
Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Overlooked, whoops - add the P2s to the above.
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Seagull
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Had a flick through Yeadons Vol.2 whilst having lunch.
All the engines up to 4489 Woodcock (Dominion of Canada) had small numbers. Shaded, silver/blue for the silver engines and gold/red/? for the green ones. 4488 would probably have had small numbers if it ever escaped Doncaster.
The five Coronation engines then got large silver unshaded Gill Sans numbers as did the two West Riding engines.
The last two green A4s (4493 & 94) got large shaded numbers, probably gold/red/?. 4495 for it's short green period also had large shaded numbers.
After that ALL new engines got the large numbers, coloured and shaded the same as the cab side numbers.
The Silver engines 2509-11 seem to have kept their small shaded silver/blue numbers until repainted blue. Though as I noted in my post above it very much looks like 2512 got large Gill Sans numbers in 1937 before it was repainted.
A careful check of the available photographs is required here.
The earlier green engines received large shaded numbers as they were repainted blue, again matching the cabside numbers.
The next difference was that a few favoured engines received silver Gill Sans numbers in early 1939 when re-named, 4469, 4499 & 4500.
4498 had it's cab numbers changed to stainless steel in Jan 1939 so I guess it also received silver Gill Sans numbers at the same time.
The engines re-named early in WW2 seem to have kept shaded numbers, 4462 & 4901.
From 1943 it becomes an ill defined mish-mash!
Yeadons Vol.2 pages 78 to 80 illustrate nearly all the styles better than I can describe them.
That leaves the un-named streak.....
Despite being outshopped from it's rebuild in Nov 1937 it appears to have received (and kept) small shaded numbers until late 1946 when it finally received the larger Gill Sans type.
There - bet you're all bored now.
Alan
All the engines up to 4489 Woodcock (Dominion of Canada) had small numbers. Shaded, silver/blue for the silver engines and gold/red/? for the green ones. 4488 would probably have had small numbers if it ever escaped Doncaster.
The five Coronation engines then got large silver unshaded Gill Sans numbers as did the two West Riding engines.
The last two green A4s (4493 & 94) got large shaded numbers, probably gold/red/?. 4495 for it's short green period also had large shaded numbers.
After that ALL new engines got the large numbers, coloured and shaded the same as the cab side numbers.
The Silver engines 2509-11 seem to have kept their small shaded silver/blue numbers until repainted blue. Though as I noted in my post above it very much looks like 2512 got large Gill Sans numbers in 1937 before it was repainted.
A careful check of the available photographs is required here.
The earlier green engines received large shaded numbers as they were repainted blue, again matching the cabside numbers.
The next difference was that a few favoured engines received silver Gill Sans numbers in early 1939 when re-named, 4469, 4499 & 4500.
4498 had it's cab numbers changed to stainless steel in Jan 1939 so I guess it also received silver Gill Sans numbers at the same time.
The engines re-named early in WW2 seem to have kept shaded numbers, 4462 & 4901.
From 1943 it becomes an ill defined mish-mash!
Yeadons Vol.2 pages 78 to 80 illustrate nearly all the styles better than I can describe them.
That leaves the un-named streak.....
Despite being outshopped from it's rebuild in Nov 1937 it appears to have received (and kept) small shaded numbers until late 1946 when it finally received the larger Gill Sans type.
There - bet you're all bored now.
Alan
Last edited by Seagull on Tue May 12, 2015 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Playing trains, but trying to get serious
Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Again thanks for the feedback.
In "The Streaks" book there is a painting diagram for "Dominion of New Zealand" in Garter Blue livery with stainless lettering. Scaling from this the front painted letters woud be 7.5" which goes well with what we believe. I also found a very good side on image of Silver Link and superimposed it over the diagram in order to try and guestimate the height of the "Silver Link" lettering on the cladding: 5" over the silver.
We know that the normal LNER practice was to use 4.5" lettering on the front buffer beam. It is my belief that the green liveried A4's also used 4.5" letting, however on Garter Blue A4s (that used normal transfers) they are definately larger and I suspect they used 6". This would be consistent with the GNR that used 6" lettering for a while before reverting back to 4.5".
I found an excellent series of articles by Mel Haigh (http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/a4name/a4names.shtml) which goes into livery details in some depth. Unfortunately some of his lettering dimensions seem way out.
The ray of hope I have is that comparing pictures of A4s with silver painted front numbers, is that the height of them appears to match exactly two bolt head spacings on the front panel. If the letters are 7.5" then the spacing of the bolts is at 3.75" pitch and it should be possible to get reasonable estimates from other photos.
I just need someone to measure the bolt spacing on the front of an A4 for me
.
In "The Streaks" book there is a painting diagram for "Dominion of New Zealand" in Garter Blue livery with stainless lettering. Scaling from this the front painted letters woud be 7.5" which goes well with what we believe. I also found a very good side on image of Silver Link and superimposed it over the diagram in order to try and guestimate the height of the "Silver Link" lettering on the cladding: 5" over the silver.
We know that the normal LNER practice was to use 4.5" lettering on the front buffer beam. It is my belief that the green liveried A4's also used 4.5" letting, however on Garter Blue A4s (that used normal transfers) they are definately larger and I suspect they used 6". This would be consistent with the GNR that used 6" lettering for a while before reverting back to 4.5".
I found an excellent series of articles by Mel Haigh (http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/a4name/a4names.shtml) which goes into livery details in some depth. Unfortunately some of his lettering dimensions seem way out.
The ray of hope I have is that comparing pictures of A4s with silver painted front numbers, is that the height of them appears to match exactly two bolt head spacings on the front panel. If the letters are 7.5" then the spacing of the bolts is at 3.75" pitch and it should be possible to get reasonable estimates from other photos.
I just need someone to measure the bolt spacing on the front of an A4 for me
.Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Guilty as charged.Eightpot wrote:A quibble maybe, but in the case of A4s (plus W1 and two B17s for a time), strictly speaking the number was on the streamlined casing and not on the buffer-beam proper which was actually behind it.
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Seagull
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
The book Streamlined Steam - Britain's 1930s Luxury Expresses by A.J. Mullay has some brilliant photographs, but no dimensions.
Opposite the title page is a fantastic front end shot of 2509 with small numbers and almost certainly in original livery - the caption states June 1936. It looks brand new and the only alterations are the front coupling hook and the numbers -there is no obvious sign of wear and tear on the platework.
The buffers scale as 17mm - I assume that they are 15" diameter.
The bolts are spaced at 6.375mm (13.25mm across 2) - that scales as 5.65" - but from other photos 2509 has LESS bolt heads at the front than even 2510. ie. the spacing is greater on 2509 than her sisters!
The Numbers are just over 5mm high say 5.1mm (The 'silver' part ignoring the shading) - that scales as 4.5"
The N is 4.9mm wide - 4.3"
The o is 2.5mm dia - 2.2"
The full stop is 1.2mm square - 1.05"
The 2 is 4.5mm wide - 4"
The 5 is 5mm wide (at it widest) - 4.4"
The 0 is 5.1mm wide - 4.5"
The 9 is 4.9mm wide - 4.3"
There are many other good photos of A4s which show that the large numbers later used are the height of two bolt spacings on several of the other engines. I am away working for the next two weeks and won't have any books with me, so some other rivet counter will have to study those.
Alan
Opposite the title page is a fantastic front end shot of 2509 with small numbers and almost certainly in original livery - the caption states June 1936. It looks brand new and the only alterations are the front coupling hook and the numbers -there is no obvious sign of wear and tear on the platework.
The buffers scale as 17mm - I assume that they are 15" diameter.
The bolts are spaced at 6.375mm (13.25mm across 2) - that scales as 5.65" - but from other photos 2509 has LESS bolt heads at the front than even 2510. ie. the spacing is greater on 2509 than her sisters!
The Numbers are just over 5mm high say 5.1mm (The 'silver' part ignoring the shading) - that scales as 4.5"
The N is 4.9mm wide - 4.3"
The o is 2.5mm dia - 2.2"
The full stop is 1.2mm square - 1.05"
The 2 is 4.5mm wide - 4"
The 5 is 5mm wide (at it widest) - 4.4"
The 0 is 5.1mm wide - 4.5"
The 9 is 4.9mm wide - 4.3"
There are many other good photos of A4s which show that the large numbers later used are the height of two bolt spacings on several of the other engines. I am away working for the next two weeks and won't have any books with me, so some other rivet counter will have to study those.
Alan
Playing trains, but trying to get serious
Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
I had forgotten that book and as you say the image of 2509 is superb. Oh for more like that.
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AdamOrmorod4468
- LNER N2 0-6-2T
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Re: A4 Locomotive Buffer Beam lettering
Sorry to bring back this old topic, but does anyone know of suitable 4mm scale transfers for the larger front numbers in gold?