Coach side nameboards on 'named trains'

[Seagull]

I think Coach G may have been a Brake 1st corridor. and not a Brake 3rd.

I have a well treasured copy of the Gresley Observer Silver Jubilee Commemerative Issue and it has what I suspect are John Edgson drawings.
Coach G (originally coach F) was and remained a 5 compartment brake 3rd with 30 seats.

In May 1936 changes were made in the dining arrangements by moving seats around and/or re-designating their use. This gave additional seats that could be booked, as opposed to being used only for dining. At this time there were no external changes to the train.

In March 1938 the extra 3rd class carriage was added between the original two, with 6 compartments and 35 seats.
(One end compartment had a corner missing and thus one seat to allow more space at the corridor end vestibule).
This additional coach took the number 1587 and designation coach F. The original coach F became 1588 coach G.

GL as the others have said the Hornby coaches are Stanier coaches resprayed silver.
I have looked at various options and the most accurate way to represent the train is with one of the available etched kits.
The cost of this would be £250/300 plus.

If you want something a little less expensive maybe some of the old hornby Thompson coaches they produced about 30 years ago could be re-cycled. They are very similar to the streamlined trains. There is a batch of 4 on a certain auction website at the moment.

Alan

[earlswood nob]

G'day all

The reason that I wondered about coach G (F) being a 1st at some time is because on page 141 of Michael Harris's book appendix it is listed as a brake 1st.

This is possibly as misprint as the seating figures do not match those of coach A.

Earlswood nob

[Seagull]

Hello Earlswood Nob,

Yes it's a misprint.

There are possibly some other mistakes and/or omissions but it's still a fantastic reference.

Alan

[2512silverfox]

Graeme

Not sure if I read your post correctly but the 'normal' LNER roof boards were white with black lettering; not the other way round! SJ and Pullmans were different and boards were used on the spare set of Coronation coaches which could be branded either Coronation or West Riding.

Nick

[2512silverfox]

I was scanning some photos for another project and found the attached photo of a Gil Sans example roof board (The Northern Belle).

The actual photo depicts one of the Sleeper Firsts in the consist and is dated 1933.

[Graeme Leary]

Thank you all but due to 'overcrowding' (ie far too much 'stock') rather than buy more coaches I thought I'd go off on another tangent and, as has been pointed out my so-called Silver Jubilee coaches are silver painted Stanier coaches and therefore I presume are LMS I would repaint in an (shock horror) LMS livery. I have no knowledge whatsoever of LMS coach livery(and barely minimal LNER anyway) but a section of my layout is for LMS trains that in some places shared LNER metals and even stations. What would be an appropriate/correct LMS livery that I could repaint these 5 'Stanier' coaches in to represent a fairly typical train and in particular behind anyone of the 3 different LMS locos I have which are:-
Patriot Class (Duke of Sutherland) Bachmann model 31-212 in LMS Crimson
D16/1 Diesel LMS 10000 (The Hattons model)
LMS 4P/BR Class 4MT 2-6-4 (Have 2 of these, 1 LMS Black and the other LMS Crimson).
Thanks again (and trust the thought of advising on LMS matters is not 'beyond the pale'!)
Graeme Leary

[Seagull]

My knowledge of LMS livery is sketchy but I seem to remember it's normaly divided into 3 periods.

1st Midland Railway livery with the lettering LMS instead of MR
2nd Simplified Midland Railway with LMS instead of MR
3rd Stanier - Midland Railway red with simple lining.

OK slightly tounge in cheek but that is pretty much it.

Type LMS Stanier coach livery into your favourite search engine and you will see it is 'Crimson Lake' (dark red) with fairly simple lining.

There is a useful book called "The Big Four in Colour 1935-50" by David Jenkinson. You can normally find a copy for a few pounds, or Dollars in your case.
It has good pictures of all four company's loco, carriages, good wagons, road vehicles etc.

Alan

[Graeme Leary]

Again, thanks to all. The book I mentioned I do have, 'Railway Carriage Album' by G.M. Kichenside is not fully comprehensive' but comparing the photo (p77) of 'LMS Corridor Stock 1933-39' and the 5 Hornby 'Silver Jubilee' coaches I have, it is easy to see the models are a Stanier design. The most obvious difference is the photo shows a 'shorter' window set in what I assume is the door, then a 'clouded' window (I assume the lavatory) and then 7 'normal' windows and the other end has what appears to be just the shorter window set in the door. The Hornby model has this narrower 'clouded' window at BOTH ends between the door windows and the main (larger) carriage windows.
This book also has 2 pages of photos (p114/5) headed LNER Non-corridor stock 1924-39 and the dates suggested the Silver Jubilee coaches may have looked more like these. However as they're described as 'the first Gresley LNER 'Suburban' designs, I assume Express/Main line coaches would have been quite different to 'suburban' coaches.
There are 2 other pages (p 126/7) headed the 'LNER Coronation train 1937' stating this followed on 'from the success of its first streamlined train, 'The Silver Jubilee' and this could suggest the same coaches may have been used on the 'Coronation' as it appeared only 2 years later. (And I can now see where I got mixed up on the Observation Coach in an earlier posting thinking it was the Silver Jubilee).
I do have a few other books featuring LNER and quite a lot of shots of The Silver Jubilee but these photos focus more on the A4s hauling them and the carriages are at such an angle the detail is not at all clear. However, one of them in 'Named Trains on LNER Lines Part II, is very good but only shows about 2/3rd of the length of the first coach behind the loco (4492 Dominion of New Zealand , which was never painted in silver livery anyway) and this coach appears to be a very different design to any other photos I have seen).
But I guess I won't be able to resolve this until I lay my hands on some of the other books recommended (so a return to some of the railway book specialists when we're in Blighty in July will be essential).
All postings very much appreciated.
Regards
Graeme Leary

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all from sunny Surrey

The Gresley non-corridor was 51ft1ins stock.
The Coronation set was a similar length to the main coaches of the Silver Jubilee set 56ft2ins, but were arranged in four twins with the observation coach added in the summer.

Earlswood nob

[jwealleans]

Have you had a look at Simon Martin's blog, Graeme?

[52D]

Love the board for Chesterfield Market Place, I can just about visualise the train from Arkwright Town with one of these boards in place.

[Seagull]

Hello Graham,

I have quite a few books about or featuring LNER carriages, I am doing a 'little' project.

Funnily enough there is relatively little about the actual Silver Jubilee carriages in most books.
Structurally they were pretty much just ordinary wooden framed steel panelled stock.
Yes they were articulated to save weight and yes special attention was given to the suspension and riding qualities but that was it.
Remember they were built in a hurry so you can see they were not about to take chances on something new.

The exterior finish a brilliant bit of showmanship when the set was new, but later they had to paint is silver as the original Rexine outer panels did not stand up well in exterior usage. (Rexine was a plastic type finish, very much like Formica or Melamine). (Edit I should have said but softer and more flexible)

The interiors also were fairly similar to the normal East Coast Joint Stock carriages. ie The Flying Scotsman etc.
It was the Coronation/West Riding sets that were the real ground breakers, at least interior wise, and the less well known East Anglian set.

The only place I know where you can easily get information about the Silver Jubilee set and it's design and layout is from the Isinglass drawings.

I have a commemorative issue of the Gresley Observer which featured the Silver Jubilee and gives lots of information, but I got it new 30 years ago and I will not let it out of my sight!

I would suggest that most of what you want can be found in 3 books:- (Others may differ)

LNER Carriages - Michael Harris. Available in paperback form for about £15. It covers design, development, lots of details and basic notes about usage. It's pretty much my Bible on LNER carriages.
Named Trains on LNER Lines - Willie Yeadon. You have volume 2. Try to get hold of Vol. 1. Otherwise there is a later combined volume which is more easily available and maybe cheaper.
LNER Passenger Trains & Formations 1923-67 - Steve Banks. Gives you information about formations and operations.

Get those three and you have about 75-80% of what I have found useful.

The rest you can ask on this forum.

Alan

[Graeme Leary]

THanks Alan for all the further background (I sometimes wonder why I ask these sorts of questions as the depth of knowledge you people come up with is truly amazing (and, at times, mind boggling). I will add these books to my list for firstly a visit to the local main Auckland (and quite a big place it is too) and failing any joy there, will drop into the various specialist railway book sellers in the UK during July.
Graeme

[2512silverfox]

Seagull mentions the repainting of the SJ set when the Rexine became stained and unsightly. The set was repainted in the light grey similar to the locos, but not silver! This became a common misconception in the 70s when Hornby first produced a so called SJ set!

[Seagull]

The set was repainted in the light grey similar to the locos, but not silver! This became a common misconception in the 70s when Hornby first produced a so called SJ set!

Thanks for that Silverfox.

Now you mention it, that makes a lot of sense because it was not until the late 60's early 70's that they developed a silver paint that had reasonable weather resistance.
Anyone remember the Mk.2 Ford Cortinas painted Silver Fox - that really was the paint name! It cost Ford a lot of money to respray customers cars when the paint finish went flakey or cloudy within a few months.

I don't imagine that a 1930's silver paint would have lasted more than a few days in the atmosphere of a steam railway.

Alan