Coach side nameboards on 'named trains'

[Graeme Leary]

At the risk of this topic having been covered already, I don't seem to be able to find any photos from LNER days of any of the following 'named trains' with 'side-boards' names on the coaches. In particular would the following have had their coaches named? (1) 'Flying Scotsman' (2) 'Queen of Scots' - but I do have some recollection of seeing this one somewhere on Pullman coaches (3) 'Yorkshire Pullman' (4) 'Scarborough Flyer' and (5) 'The Northern Belle'.
And supplementary question; I've assumed these prestige trains would have been mainly (always ??) Pullman coaches but were the classic LNER Teak coaches used on these expresses (or any other type of coach for that matter) and if so, would they have carried coach side name boards? Any other information such as colours used in these coach names would be of interest too.
Many thanks.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[teaky]

Hi Graeme,

I recommend you buy a copy of LNER Passenger Trains and Formations by Steve Banks and Clive Carter. An excellent book.

All of the trains you mention are shown at least once in the above book and all feature name boards on the coaches.

In addition, you appearto have mixed up the coach types.

Flying Scotsman - teak
Queen of Scots - Pullman
Yorkshire Pullman - Pullman
Scarborough Flyer - teak
Northern Belle - teak (unless you mean the later version using BR Mk2s)

I believe colours would have been black lettering on a white background in LNER days. Perhaps someone else could clarify?

[jwealleans]

It gets more complex than that. Carriages within a train like the Flying Scotsman would have a large board in the central holder with the name of the train but then, if it was a carriage for a destination other than the main one (the Scotsman carried carriages for Glasgow, Aberdeen and Perth, OTTOMH) there would be a smaller board below that showing the destination of that particular carriage.

If you look at this picture on Steve Banks' website you can see the smaller boards below the larger ones on the cornice rail.

[Dave]

Here are a couple of extracts from drawings which show these destination boards on the cant rail below the lable boards.
6727N 1st Corridor 1929 & 6728N 1st Restaurant 1929.

[2512silverfox]

Graeme

If you look at page 22 of HCDVol1 there is a composite photo of a BTK(EV) showing 'The Flying Scotsman' with the smaller 'Glasgow' beneath. This was the norm for the main expresses especially where there were smaller sets within the train. This smaller boards were also used on local services. This example is in Gil Sans but the earlier pattern is shown in the attached illustration.

Nick

[65447]

And this shows a Thompson CL with a local destination - Felixstowe - in place below the cornice. The clips were a standard fitting. White background with black Gill Sans lettering.

[1H was 2E]

Here's a photo. of a destination board which I believe to be LNER. Although it's only one of the small boards for a local service, I think it may give a representation of the colours used on the 'big' boards:-

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks to all for your responses and, yes, it is highly likely I have my coach types mixed up. However, for my model railway purposes I want to run express trains, one hauling LNER Teak coaches so this will probably be 'Flying Scotsman' as I'm sure both loco head plates and coach side name boards are available (and I have already communicated with Fox Transfers for the loco name plate in the LNER earlier 'plainer' style - rather than the shaped 'shield' style which I think came in after nationalisation).

For the Pullman coach express train I'm going to see if I can get 'Yorkshire Pullman' in the 'plain' (ie non 'shield') style loco headboard (of which I have a number of photos) and also the coach side name boards. If these aren't readily available - or the price is 'up there' to have made especially, I'd be happy with 'Queen of Scots'. It would be tempting to go further down the path of 'minor' destinations under the main name board for coaches being detached 'en-route' but it would definitely confuse the issue, despite being prototypically correct.

At this point I will work on both the 'Flying Scotsman' and 'Yorkshire Pullman' (or even 'Queen of Scots') coach name boards being, as suggested, black lettering on a white background and are correct for LNER's operation of these expresses.

The other question worth asking:- I have 5 Hornby silver coaches with 'The Silver Jubilee' side coach names depicted in silver lettering on a navy background. I assume these are correct but maybe someone could confirm if the colour of the loco's head board is the same (and in what style)- which again I assume was one of the 4 'Silver' A4 locos on all 'Silver Jubilee expresses. (I plan to get one more coach and 'articulate' these coaches into sets of 3 - which is how I understood they ran - and any comment on the correctness of this would be appreciated. There has also been an announcement that someone is going to produce the Observation Car soon so I'm watching this as well).

I have a couple of books on 'named' trains (but one of them shows more BR period so limited for what I'm working towards) and the other 'Railway Carriage Album' by G.M. Kichenside has some great shots but there is more emphasis on the locos and their head boards. However I will keep an eye out for 'LNER Passenger Trains and Formations' when in the UK at the end of next month if I still have any doubts - unlikely with the brilliant feedback I get from your replies.

Thanks again all, very grateful.
Graeme Leary

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all

I am not sure, but I think the Hornby "Silver Jubilee" coaches are silver painter Stanier coaches.

The Silver Jubilee train originally consisted of two twins and a restaurant triplet. Later (1938?) a short third was added to make one of the twins into a triplet.

The articulation bogies were changed (1937?) into a 10ft wheelbase version.

Isinglass do a set of drawings for the Silver Jubilee train.

Earlswood nob

[jwealleans]

EN has it about right. The Hornby Silver Jubilee carriages bear little or no resemblance to the LNER originals although Simon Martin is making an attempt to bring them much closer. The original train was two twins and a triplet, I believe and it was extended by making one twin a triplet in about 1937. Mick has built a full set fairly early in his thread on this forum. At least one of Michael Harris' books has a drawing of the whole train.

There was never an observation car on the Silver Jubilee, it was the (summer) Coronation.

[mick b]

Page 14 on my model thread for the complete original Silver Jubilee set , I never made the additional coach.

[2512silverfox]

I do not believe that the Silver Jubilee ever had a head board! Presumably because it could not have been anything else when first introduced. The same applied to the Coronation and West Riding.

The roof boards on Pullman cars changed at some stage from black on white to yellow (or ochre) on brown. I am not sure if this was pre WW2 or just after; perhaps someone has chapter and verse?

[65447]

In terms of book resources, I am surprised that no-one has yet mentioned the two volumes of Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines' published by Booklaw nor David Peel's 'Locomotive Headboards - The Whole Story'. Whilst not necessarily going into detail on the carriage boards, the overall chronology and plentitude of photographs answer many questions.

Graeme - I appreciate that sourcing these is difficult when you live thousands of miles away from the UK, but there will probably be other LNER enthusiasts in your country who may just have copies.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks all and again, very helpful.

First, I take it my intention re lettering colours on coachroof names on Teak coaches for Flying Scotsman (and may even Scarborough Flyer) in Whte lettering on Navy is correct/acceptable but maybe I should be changing the colours for the Yorkshire Pullman and/or Queen of Scots to Yellow(Ochre) on Brown. My running of these is fairly 'generic' so whether before or after WW2 probably doesn't matter in this instance.

Regarding Silver Jubilee' I agree with 2512silverfox's comments about loco train names not being on The Silver Jubilee - this made me recall that I had read (in Yeadon's 'Named Trains of LNER Part II) that LNER didn't have head boards due to the risk of clips not holding at speed. (I also recall reading somewhere that loco headboards were not used on A4s on any named trains in their early days and photos I have of many A4s in this period would indicate that. Maybe loco head boards on A4s were an innovation after Nationalisation and BR - would this be correct?).

en: I will have a closer look at the 5 Silver Jubilee coaches I have ands try to compare them with shots (if I can find them) of the Stanier coaches you mention. If they are Stanier (and maybe therefore LMS) maybe I will look at getting rid of them and try and find the correct coaches to repaint in the silver livery. If decide to keep, does your post imply I could articulate 2 of them into a paired set ('twins') and the other 3 articulate into a triple set ('triplets'). I also take your point that Observation Cars were not on 'The Silver Jubilee' expresses - think I had been getting mixed up with the removeable connecting vestibule cover on the rear of the last carriage with 'The Silver Jubilee' painted on this (again from
Yeadon's 'Named Trains of LNER Lines Part II, there is a good shot on page 157).

65447: Maybe the Yeadon's I quote above is one of the books you mentioned but will have a trawl around our local library on the whole subject anyway. And yes, there are a few LNER enthusiasts here in the colonies - that I have regular contact with - originally from such diverse places as Hull, Ravenscar, Crigglestone, Batley, Doncaster but their 'depth of knowledge' which is pretty substantial is more during the BR period. But will have a chat to them in turn.

If don't hear to the contrary will get coach roof nameboards made in colours as above. Thanks once more.
Graeme

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all esp Graeme

I'm not certain about the Hornby coaches, but have a sketch of the Silver Jubilee train from the Kirk kit.

Coach A/B Twin Brake 1st corridor/ 1st Semi open
Coach C/-/D Triplet 1st Dining car/ Kitchen/ 3rd Dining car
Coach E/F/G Triplet 3rd Corridor/ 3rd Corridor/ Brake 3rd Corridor

The coaches were 56ft2ins except for the Kitchen car (41ft) and Coach F (45ft11ins)

I think Coach G may have been a Brake 1st corridor. and not a Brake 3rd.

GL, If you want to articulate the Hornby coaches to produce a pseudo-Silver Jubilee train, its your railway. I am building some pseudo-GNR artic sets from Hornby clerestorys, and they are not accurate, but look good on the track. They will look better when I finish detailing them.

Earlswood nob