North Eastern Region Question

[Pyewipe Junction]

My question relates to the date the NER formally took over responsibility for the ex-LMS and ex-LNER Southern Area lines in the West Riding.

I have a summer 1955 NER timetable that clearly shows these lines as part of the Region (both as tables and on the fold-out map at the end) but somehow I have the impression that the corresponding shed codes (20xx, 25xx and 37xx) didn't change over until 1956 or even 1957 in the case of 37xx.

The Locosheds database tantalisingly has no entries from 1956 to 1959!

Can anyone please clarify this?

[stembok]

Pyewipe Junction: There was indeed a reorganisation of motive power depots in 1956/57 in the West Riding with Leeds sheds taking the shed code 55/56, with Holbeck 20A/ 55A and Copley Hill 37B/56C as examples. It was part of a tidying up of regional boundaries and responsibilities and there were similar reorganisations in the Sheffield area as former LMS sheds in the 19 group became part of the E R under shed code 41 and also within the North Eastern Region itself, as at Sunderland ,where the 54 shed group was abolished in 1958 and subsumed into the 52 group. Incidentally, Leeds Neville Hill stayed in the York group as 50B a little longer, 1960?, but eventually became 55H. One result of the changes was occasionally seen in the borrowing of motive power. Whereas Neville Hill had traditionally borrowed engines from York 50A - its main shed - if short, there was increasingly borrowing within the Leeds 55 group. For example, Holbeck would perhaps borrow a Neville Hill A3 if necessary for one of its Leeds - Glasgow turns during the period 1960-61, when these engines worked the main trains on this route or vica versa for Neville Hill's turns to Newcastle.

[Pyewipe Junction]

Thanks, Stembok.

The 41B -K shedcodes were actually created wef 1/1/58, at the same time the LMR took over the GC main line to London south of Chesterfield. 40XX lost Tuxford (40D to 41K) and Langwith Junction (40E to 41J), 38XX (abolished) lost Colwick (38A to 40E) and Staveley GC (38D to 41H) and finally 36XX lost Mexborough (36B to 41F) and Barnesley (36D to 41G).

At one time, 55A had no fewer than six A3s allocated to it during the period 1960-1962. Apparently they were well liked on the difficult Leeds - Carlisle line. Other ex-LMs sheds (principally in the 56XX group) also received significant numbers of ex-LNER locos. I remember Mirfield (56D) had two or three B16s at one time. I wonder what the enginemen made of them!

Getting back to the regional boundaries, I can only assume there was transitional period during 1955-57 during which divisonal shed arrangments didn't change but actual regional responsibilities did.

[stembok]

Pyewipe Junction:Yes, the Holbeck A3s 60038/69/70/72/77/80/82/88/92, had gone to the Leeds area at various times in 1960 on being made redundant on Tyneside by the influx of EE Type 4s from late 1959 at Gateshead. Some had at first gone to Copley Hill, prior to transfer to Holbeck.Their reign was fairly brief, but apparently successful and they became well liked by many of the Holbeck crews and also those at Glasgow Corkerhill, no mean feat given the innate conservatism of steam age enginemen and the still strong loyalties and partisanship fostered by the pre-1948 groups. Most had moved away by mid 1961 on dieselisation of the Leeds-Glasgow services,but 60038 stayed at Holbeck until June 1963, then moving to Neville Hill. Even into 1965 Holbeck would borrow a Neville Hill Peppercorn A1 for summer relief workings up into Scotland over the S&C. Without the regional changes mentioned previously it is unlikely such motive power moves would have taken place. As to the B16s at Mirfield I am not sure, but the B16/2s and B16/3s used to work over into Lancashire on freight from York and being a powerful machine were evidently quite well received. Not so sure about any reaction to the B16/1s in their original form. Some of the GC men who handled them on York -Woodford freights referred to them as 'bloodspitters' as they always gave an impression of being heavy goers!

[Pyewipe Junction]

According to the Locosheds database, Mirfield had five B16s (61449,61461,61464,61468 and 61476) around 1962.

Not sure if they were B16/2s or B16/3s. I'm at work and don't have my ABC with me!

[stembok]

Pyewipe Junction: I think? they are all B16/3s. The B16/1s had all gone by 1961 and I remember a few still awaiting cutting up in Darlington Work's scrapyard on a visit in January 1962. The B16 class became extinct in 1964, though I'm pretty certain Darlington Works was still overhauling the odd one in late 1962. They did well to last until 64 considering the surplus of V2s and B1s by the early 1960s. Disposal was evidently a chore on these engines, as indeed on many others, baling out the firebox a tedious job, without the benefit of more modern labour saving devices to aid the fireman and probably a relic of the basic age of a design, introduced, when labour and muscle power was plentiful and cheap. In this respect they were like some other NER designs. I remember a fireman describing the job of disposing of a Q7 in very robust language to me.

[Bryan]

It wasn't just the engines reallocated.
According to K Hooles booklet on ploughs
900575 / 21 and 900576 / 22 2 went to Holbeck
Also 900577 / 23 and 900578 / 24 were at Mirfield
All steel bodied ploughs and are recorded at the locations in 67.
Thankfully the 2 Timber ones remained at Darlington and are still extant today.
18 at Pickering and 20 at Beamish.

[johnwaero]

Only just found this post so you will have all moved on by now. To be pedantic the transfer to the NER occurred commercially in April 1950. The Railway Executive set out to establish geographically based regions but started with boundaries based on the former companies. Some tinkering occurred in 1948 and the first major changes were announced in a paper published in November of that year. This resulted in the Cheshire Lines and attached GC branches, for example, being transferred on November 30th to the LMR. The Cheshire Lines although notionally under LMR control from the start retained its separate mangement structure until the formal transfer occured.
However, many other changes were not implemented until April 1950 because of the issue of "penetrating lines". Although the boundary changes set out to eliminate such anomalies, it was argued that it would create problems if lines were divided into different regions. A compromise was reached whereby lines were transferred on a commercial basis but remained with the donor region for operational purposes. The commercial region plastered its colours and in some cases totems over its new acquisitions and tickets/public maps relected the new arrangement. However, shed codes and carriages retained their original regional designation. Strangely, in my view, the public timetable continued to reflect the operational ownership rather than the commercial region.
So in April 1950, for example, Manchester London Road to Dunford Bridge/Hazlehead was LMR commercially but ER operationally. The KWVR and GNR lines in West Yorkshire were North Eastern Region commercially but LMR and ER operationally respectively.
Finally someone decided this was all too complicated and in the late fifties the dual arrangement was phased out.
Former ER sheds in West Yorkshire were transferred to the NER on 11th June 1956 and the former LMR sheds on 17th September 1956.