I think IAK is saying the same as me?, there is loads of hot air especially on the dark side whenever any post production model of anything appears. Manafacturers seem to ignore comments from most of the punters so its gets a bit pointless until the final for sale example actually arrives.
I do agree the wrong wagon seems to have been picked, the earlier version has much more sale potential.
Phil Parker has confirmed it's a plastic bodied wagon so perhaps that can be put to bed now.
Haven't read what has been written on the other forum but I dare say there's a strong possibility of it being a great deal calmer and less antagonistic over here. It was when I stopped posting over there already handled in a very partisan fashion and I dare say that whatever intent there may be behind posts, politeness isn't encouraged and being antagonistic to all others with alternate views positively encouraged.
Even as I type there are probably posters popping over here to dissect what's being said. Let them - it is that forum's prerogative to act in the manner encouraged by its staff and happily it is this forum's prerogative to continue in the vein Richard has set down here.
I've been interested to read Adrian's points in particular and whilst I have no axe to grind on the issue at all, I do think it shows that there's always room for selective improvement. I say selective as I wonder if a number of the issues found have possibly only come to light because the prototype isn't indicative of a finished product - but several potentially? Do wagon body toolings have "slides" for the injection moulded parts as per other manufacturer's products? If so could the silver wagon we've seen be showcasing what can be done as opposed a specific wagon modelled at a specific time?
Alternatively I'm speculating entirely wildly and way way off mark - please correct me and feel free to, I'd love to know about the actual design and manufacturing process.
The presence of straight up errors, on a product which Oxford's own site proclaims as 'fully tooled', rather argues that it simply isn't a good representation of the 1923 RCH design as built. Why would would you tool up stuff that isn't required like the groove across the face of the bufferbeam?
Hi Everyone, Over on the other side Tim Mulhall from OR has admitted that they got the coupler length wrong, this was only one of the 33 points I emailed to OR in the days after the pictures appeared. However he does state that Lyndon Davies ( on whose desk the buck stops ) listens to customers. Unfortunately "listening" and "taking action" are not quite the same thing so I am afraid that it is quite possible that nothing else will change. In the past other manufacturers have reached this stage of tooling and errors have been pointed out but the costs of correction have meant no or very few changes happening.
Knowing a bit about injection mould tooling there are a few errors that could be corrected without major expense. It is fairly simple to remove metal from the die but much harder to add. For instance, reducing the size of the nuts on the body and the strange corner plate error would, I think, mean a whole new tool but removing the "plank groove" on the buffer beam would be very easy provided that part of the tool can be indexed to where it was originally . As far as I know these tools are "CUT" using spark erosion with a copper electrode which itself has been machined by CNC . In the case of the "plank groove" the raised rib would need to be machined off the copper and then the rib on the steel die could be removed. It might be possible to machine this off directly as it is easy to get access to that area of the die. As the sample shown now stands, to correct the main errors would need a complete new set of tools for the outside of the body ( 4 slides) and a rework of the inside tool to add the missing drop door. They could probably get away with the chassis tool although some modifications would be desirable.
The cost of doing all this would add at least 50% to the actual tooling costs and I doubt that can be afforded as it will only increase sales marginally, 90% of potential customers would still buy, in ignorance, unless there were highly critical reviews in two or three of the magazines. I have just seen 3 reviews of the FTG SPA model which is far far worse than the OR product and the only criticisms have been the coupler length and one other point. One area was even praised for it's detail in spite of being totally inaccurate. Since the far more accurate Bachmann model of virtually the same prototype is available and the liveries planned by OR include FEAR which has already been done by Bachmann and the authenticity of the 5 others is very suspect the rivet counters will not be buying many of OR's products irrespective of detail accuracy. I just hope people have the sense to read forums before they buy but actions "elsewhere" mean even doing that may not reveal much useful information. Regards all adrianbs
Assuming the slides are adjustable, which common sense says they must be, replanking or reriviting the die is not a difficult operation. It's just a matter of facing off the die to the depth of the plank lines (around .2mm) and then recutting the detail. Reriviting would probably require .5mm. The real drama would be if they wanted to adjust the end stanchions.
I understand that the big multipart sprues,for example found in military kits, are made up of a number of small dies mounted into one big die.
Hi Roger, Fully agree with you on what they will do, but the cost of doing that is much the same as making the tool in the first place. Many copper electrodes will have to be remade or replaced using a modified CAD program and then spark eroded into a basically blank slide which will cost much the same as starting with an entirely new slide. The tool holder may well be a standard 6 way bolster unit which can be used for other products so may not be a major part of the tooling cost unless there are some special requirements. Redoing the CAD will involve further research and checks to make sure it is right this time and all the QC stages will have to be done again up to pre-pro stage. Have OR got someone on board capable of getting it right this time round ? Clearly their first attempt has been quite close but close is not correct and are they willing to spend any more time and money at all to change things.
As you say, all the separate bits apart from the body and chassis will be on a simple two part tool ( possibly on the chassis mould ) with each part replaceable but they will need to replace or alter the two (3 if they plan later to offer the fixed both ends variant ) end stanchions, 2 ( or 3 ) buffer bodies, tension lock coupler bars, and Vee hanger/lever mouldings . They will also need to make a new die for stamping the coupler hook, unless it is laser cut, to shorten it if they REALLY intend to close up the couplings by 4mm. This would correct all the current faults I can see but have I spotted all of them ?? Regards adrianbs
Hi Everyone, Following on from my earlier post I have tracked down more evidence that the liveries of these wagon are not authentic for '23 RCH designs. Arley no 286 is a 1907 design 16' 10 ton wagon. Fear Bros which has already been done by Bachmann has a different body design and Coventry would have been OK if they had given it a correct number and 12 ton capacity instead of 10. Since Welford appears to show 8 Tons and other photos with different running numbers are certainly not '23 wagons that just leaves Weymouth which might be correct. Does anyone have any references to this livery ?? Since Oxford are clearly not interested in the accuracy or authenticity of the liveries I imagine they will not bother to alter the mouldings much either. Not a very auspicious start for a new range and rather worrying with regard to the Radial and any further products. The only saving grace at the moment is that they could use the underframe moulding to produce the wood underframe LNER opens and vans with 9' wheelbase. This would be fairly easy provided they improved the buffers and altered the brakeshoes and levers to Morton 2 shoe. Whether they have thought of this remains to be seen, it is more likely we will see 8, 5 or 4 plank PO wagons in a mulitude of liveries before that. Regards adrianbs
adrianbs wrote:...Whether they have thought of this remains to be seen, it is more likely we will see 8, 5 or 4 plank PO wagons in a mulitude of liveries before that.
TBH I'm increasingly sceptical we'll even see that. They have their cash cow, a canvas for an endless range of 'near enough' liveries.
That definitely has two bottom doors - on the interior - but the underfloor view still shows different detail each side. Please note, this is an observation not a whinge, and I know it wouldn't normally be visible. I just find it curious.
The capping clips look pretty picked out in black, but as it's already been established that these weren't fitted until post-war and possibly BR days, it just draws attention to them.
Hi Everyone The new photos show a bit more detail but I have emailed MRE suggesting the clips would be better left unpainted altogether. I think the plain undefloor panel is waiting to be engraved or printed "Oxfordrail - Made in China". As it has not been engraved I expect it will just be printed and this would leave them free to change the lettering although "made in Wales" may be a long time coming. The buffers at the non door end look better but I suspect they had been put in upside down with off centre pegs to clear the floor originally. It looks increasingly likely that this is the finished tooling so it's very much "The wrong wagon design at the wrong time with the wrong details and unsuitable liveries" Certainly this will get them off on the wrong foot as far as the more informed modelers are concerned but to many a wagon is a wagon,is a wagon and a cheap wagon has to be better than a more expensive one. Undercutting Hornby is clearly the aim but will they persuade retailers to stock them when their shelves are already full and this will give them even more of a problem shifting existing stock at a profit Just another nail in their coffins, spend more money, make less profit, shift dead stock at a loss. Regards adrianbs
adrianbs wrote:. Undercutting Hornby is clearly the aim but will they persuade retailers to stock them when their shelves are already full and this will give them even more of a problem shifting existing stock at a profit Just another nail in their coffins, spend more money, make less profit, shift dead stock at a loss.
This is actually a good point. It's not so long ago there was much apocryphal evidence that retailers were going cold on stocking ViTrains because of the plethora of liveries and the difficulty in knowing which (if any) would sell. There may be a comparison to be drawn here with the Oxford road vehicles.
Good News from Bachmann insofar as modelers can forget about waiting for LNER liveried Oxford rail 7 Plank '23 RCH coal wagons. The Blue Riband wagons will be appearing in LNER livery sometime soon ?. Since it is not clear if the models will have steel TEE end stanchions, from the pictures, they may not be suitable for all the LNER batches but will at least cover some, even with wood end supports. If they are making a new end slide with steel Tees then the coverage will be much more general and will also suit all the LMS vehicles as well. Dias 10 and 63 are right near the top of the wishlist for LNER models in terms of numbers and this will be the first near accurate RTR model in 4mm. It will be substantially better than the Oxford model as it currently stands. Of course there are drawbacks, the Bachmann model may still have the capping strip clips which will require surgery and touching in of paintwork and this years price increase makes them £14-25 which is 50% more than Oxford's current price!!!. They have also used a photo of a Darlington built wagon, unfortunately, for the livery AND NUMBER which would most likely have had steel Tees so the pedants will have to renumber the model unless a new slide has been made. It's tough for the LMS modelers if there is no new slide as they may have to resort to major surgery on the Oxford model even if the correct end stanchions are fitted. Their prepro models did seem to indicate the stanchions might be separate and, even as they stand, require alteration to add the " Taper" adrianbs
Pennine MC wrote:....not so long ago there was much apocryphal evidence that retailers were going cold on stocking ViTrains because of the plethora of liveries and the difficulty in knowing which (if any) would sell. ....
...the end result being that it then became very difficult to buy anything in a ViTrains box.
