1H was 2E wrote:...Has anyone noticed that, similarly, the other constituents of the LNER were subsumed under the GNR way of doing things?...
Largely true of ongoing locomotive and vehicle design, but there had already been some coherence between the constituents, and good designs from elsewhere were perpetuated and further developed. In truth at the grouping among those constituents, only the Doncaster team had the ultimate UK size multicylinder loco design platform in a satisfactory state of development; and as events at post-Churchward Swindon would shortly prove, they were in fact the only team in the UK with this distinction.
1H was 2E wrote:...I think that, generally, the GWR is over-rated and wouldn't defend them usually - but didn't the WR at Swindon improve V2 performance considerably?...
An out of sorts V2 went to Swindon to be looked at by Sam Ell's team, and it was restored to the level of performance long known and demonstrated from the class. That latterday most experienced user of Doncaster wide firebox designs, Peter Townend, used all his influence to get these machines the Kylchap exhaust system, which was a superior solution than the circa 1905 Goss technique that still held sway at Swindon. It was interesting to see that the last Doncaster concept pacific design, so much benefitted from the Kylchap exhaust it finally received at restoration.
Okay I've just pulled a few posts from the last 24 hours.
Some posters are choosing to use language which only inflames anger - inciting a more heated response.
Language like "What a pompous, pretentious load of old tosh!" is just as a provocative as is claimed of the other person, etc.
It is a problem with online forums - you can't see the other person and tempers can easily run out of control.
Try to pretend you're down the pub with the other guy having a friendly drink...
I'm keeping an eye on this thread and may freeze it if people cannot be civil.
Whilst I totally understand and agree, I'm very disappointed that there was a need for Richard to intervene on a thread that I started.
Although my first model locomotive was the Hornby B12/3 61572, (which as a small boy I didn't even realise was an LNER loco), my interest in the LNER was really triggered by my father taking me, (in the 1970s I think,) to Bulmers in Hereford where 4472 Flying Scotsman, in beautifully lined apple green, made a huge impression on me.
King George V and Pendennis Castle were there too, and they were also beautifully turned out, but they looked nothing next to the elegant A3.
It was actually a while before I learned about Mallard and the other A4s, so 4472, (and I will keep using that number rather than 60103), was the LNER to me. I am sure that I was not alone.
In BR green, and as 60103, 4472 loses her famous number and much of her iconic identity. She is less recognisable to the general public too.
Whilst we might be the enthusiasts, it is the support of the general public that will ensure that steam survives and is viable - they are the ones who pay to travel on the preserved lines in the numbers needed.
I am sure if there was a poll amongst those who have heard of Flying Scotsman, they would vote for her in her LNER livery.
The NRM cannot win. When it was being mooted to appear in LNER livery, one vocal side wanted the dark green because that's the form she currently carries. Now she is going into dark green - and to pay back a debt (for which money changed hands between Steam Railway and the NRM, lest we forget) - and the LNER side speaks up in protest.
It's only a temporary livery change and she will go back into LNER green in the future. She has spent the majority of her preservation life in LNER apple green - let's give those who'd the dark green (myself included actually) a bit of attention, let it die down and then - if you want to see a single chimney A3 - do your bit. I've already said how. The more who say it and mean it rather than posting on a forum will get it done.
Would it be possible for her to be fitted with a SINGLE kylchap exhaust? I know it wouldn't be as good as two but would this allow the re-use of parts from the existing double arrangement? Or would all the dimensions need changing to avoid choking her? Either way, surely it would be better than reverting to the original single arrangement.
Functionally the dimensions - horizontal and vertical - would need to be increased by square root of 2 to get the same performance from a single as opposed to double arrangement, and my recollection is that the reason for the double arrangement is that in single form there isn't the height available, from the lowest point at which the exhaust jet can be arranged at the bottom of the smokebox, to the top of the chimney.
So in short a single Kylchap ejector requires completely different parts which wouldn't fit. (There would also be a significant change in external appearance were it possible; with a much larger diameter single chimney, rather similar to the Le Maitre system which made the chimney noticeably larger on the Schools.)
Being serious this time round. The on going problem with regards to the livery to be carried will always IMO be a problem. That is if there is only a single engine of a given type presevered, then it can only carry a single livery at a time. It wouldn't or at least shouldn't be a problem if there are multiple machines of a given type surviving.[Hence the NRM were reluctant to restore Duchess of Hamilton to steam, as was another of the type in service i.e. Duchess of Sutherland. They said they might have a change of heart should Hamilton be re-streamlined. She has and they might if somebody comes along with an offer of cash. Ok not quite the same but it illustrated the problem]. So for instance whilst none of the surviving UK A4s carried either Silver Grey or Apple Green I for one wouldn't have a problem with a pair of the UK 4 painted in either livery whilst keeping it's own identity, as both liveries are apprpriate for the A4. I remember seeing Bittern when she was at the North Tyneside Railway Museum in the SIlver Grey livery as Silver Link and thinking WOW! No wonder people were so overawed by both the locomotive and colour scheme.
Hatfield Shed wrote:Functionally the dimensions - horizontal and vertical - would need to be increased by square root of 2 to get the same performance from a single as opposed to double arrangement, and my recollection is that the reason for the double arrangement is that in single form there isn't the height available, from the lowest point at which the exhaust jet can be arranged at the bottom of the smokebox, to the top of the chimney.
So in short a single Kylchap ejector requires completely different parts which wouldn't fit. (There would also be a significant change in external appearance were it possible; with a much larger diameter single chimney, rather similar to the Le Maitre system which made the chimney noticeably larger on the Schools.)
Ah okay, I thought there must be some reason why I'd never heard of one before.
In reply to 2392, I think I heard somewhere that due to the streamlining the driver's view would be too compromised to consider putting her on the mainline. I too agree with seeing an A4 in an inaccurate livery, but I don't think silver would work on any of them due to the lack of remaining '35 style tenders which I generally consider part of the look but apple green would be nice, or NE black perhaps for a period before a full repaint or something as a sort of undercoat. I also think Flying Scotsman should change liveries from time to time, much in the same way as I would rather have all the A4s in different liveries.
Perhaps there Ade the Silver grey livery may be incorrect with the current tenders, fitted to the current locomotives,though they were swapped between machines. Some were fitted with the 1928 built corridor tenders take from the A1/A3s so there is a precedent of sorts, as they to the best of my knowledge weren't streamlined. After all Flying Scotsman ran with SIr Nigel Gresleys' tender repainted green in the eighties complete with the then fitted stainless steel cut out L N E R letters, whilst her tender was being overhauled and Gresley was in bits too likewise being overhauled, both being at Steamtown/Carnforth.
2392 wrote:Perhaps there Ade the Silver grey livery may be incorrect with the current tenders, fitted to the current locomotives,though they were swapped between machines. Some were fitted with the 1928 built corridor tenders take from the A1/A3s so there is a precedent of sorts, as they to the best of my knowledge weren't streamlined. After all Flying Scotsman ran with SIr Nigel Gresleys' tender repainted green in the eighties complete with the then fitted stainless steel cut out L N E R letters, whilst her tender was being overhauled and Gresley was in bits too likewise being overhauled, both being at Steamtown/Carnforth.
But what I'm saying is that no silver A4s towed 1928 style tenders, indeed the only instance when any of the first four towed one was Silver Link for around 2 months in 1955, tender No. 5330 as far as I can remember, while I'm pretty sure that A4s towed 1928 tenders in every single other livery. It's a shame (in my opinion) that 4464's tender was rebuilt to 1928 spec, as the non corridor tender made her seem more 'run of the mill', while had it become the 1935 spec then it would have brought back an extinct design, been accurate for 4492, and I think both of these tender types carry the silver better than the 1928 (mainly due to the beading). Your last point is interesting though, could you possibly point me to a picture of 4472 with 4498's tender?
None of the A4s could run in the silver grey livery technically - aside from not being the right locomotives (ones which did wear it originally), none of the bow ended tenders still exist to perfect the overall form and look in that livery. A pity.
2392 wrote:Perhaps there Ade the Silver grey livery may be incorrect with the current tenders, fitted to the current locomotives,though they were swapped between machines. Some were fitted with the 1928 built corridor tenders take from the A1/A3s so there is a precedent of sorts, as they to the best of my knowledge weren't streamlined. After all Flying Scotsman ran with SIr Nigel Gresleys' tender repainted green in the eighties complete with the then fitted stainless steel cut out L N E R letters, whilst her tender was being overhauled and Gresley was in bits too likewise being overhauled, both being at Steamtown/Carnforth.
But what I'm saying is that no silver A4s towed 1928 style tenders, indeed the only instance when any of the first four towed one was Silver Link for around 2 months in 1955, tender No. 5330 as far as I can remember, while I'm pretty sure that A4s towed 1928 tenders in every single other livery. It's a shame (in my opinion) that 4464's tender was rebuilt to 1928 spec, as the non corridor tender made her seem more 'run of the mill', while had it become the 1935 spec then it would have brought back an extinct design, been accurate for 4492, and I think both of these tender types carry the silver better than the 1928 (mainly due to the beading). Your last point is interesting though, could you possibly point me to a picture of 4472 with 4498's tender?
Unfortunately I don't have any shots of Scotsman running with Gresleys' tender no doubt if you were to "google" [there are other seach engine providers out there!] it or perhaps visit the A4 Society [or whatever they're called these day you'll find a photo or two. Some did turn up in the national railway press and usually mentioned the temporary swap.
While adamant that any loco looks better in Apple Green than any other colour, I don't mind a bit of variety.
I think that 4472 / 60103 looked good, if unspectacular, the last time it was wearing BR green.
My dream scenario is that after a few years as 60103, the single chimney can be restored and deflectors removed. If that is the case, surely it makes sense to have BR green first and then 4472 can appear as Gresley intended later (apart from the usual inaccuracies that are always pointed out).
Either way, I can't wait for this most graceful of locomotives to be back out running again.
It's nice to have some variety otherwise virtually every locomotive would be in its ex BR livery. If a loco can be returned to "as originally built " then perhaps it should, but could "Scotsman" run on the National Network in its original form ? ie the increase in height.
But from a personal view I always thought the A3s looked best with the double chimney before the smoke deflectors were fitted, with the chimney to the forward end of smokebox just appealed somehow.
