4472 in BR green

[2002EarlMarischal]

I have to confess to being surprised by some of the replies to my original post. After all this is the LNER Forum.

To me 4472 (not 60103) is an iconic "living" testament to the brilliance of Sir Nigel Gresley, paving the way as it, and its fellow class members did, to the sensational A4 class.

It is a symbol of the age when steam trains were state of the art technology, and runs of the Flying Scotsman, Silver Jubilee and Coronation made the equivalent news in the golden era of the 1930s, to Concorde in the 1970s/1980s.

From 1928 to 1938, speeds increased with 4472, 2750, 2509 and finally 4468. That is the period which 4472 in glorious LNER green livery should be representing and celebrating.

It matters not that it is in A3 form and has an A4 tender etc. All existed in the days of the LNER though not in the precise combination existing now.

I see Flying Scotsman as the embodiment of LNER achievement - its period as a BR engine is barely relevant to its importance as part of our railway heritage.

[AdamOrmorod4468]

To be honest, I'm not really too bothered what colour she is as long as she runs, and sounds, right. Speaking of sounds, does anyone else find her whistle somewhat 'screechier' than other LNER teapot chimes? What note(s) is the whistle supposed to be anyway (being a piano guy, I find whistles more difficult)? Either way, I have never seen Flying Scotsman in steam (in person) and that is all that matters to me.

[Atlantic 3279]

After all this is the LNER Forum.

Quite! Perhaps those who prefer a post-LNER or non-LNER way of things should be advocating those ideas on another (say BR-ER) forum?

[giner]

To be honest, I'm not really too bothered what colour she is as long as she runs, and sounds, right. Speaking of sounds, does anyone else find her whistle somewhat 'screechier' than other LNER teapot chimes? What note(s) is the whistle supposed to be anyway (being a piano guy, I find whistles more difficult)? Either way, I have never seen Flying Scotsman in steam (in person) and that is all that matters to me.

Ah, your musical interest struck a chord with me. A bit of digging and I found this:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8897&p=87529&hilit=chord#p87529

[AdamOrmorod4468]

Thanks for that Giner, but I've already noted (ba-dum-crash) the differences between the A4's whistles. Apparently, when sounded at the Great Gathering, Mallard's whistle must have been blocked and only produced two of the notes, but I wasn't there so I couldn't tell you which. Part of the reason I'm looking forward to the new P2 2007 is her whistle, which will be the F minor type. I think Tornado for a while had the original type, but unfortunately I had not 'rediscovered' trains then so I never heard it.

[Robert the Devil]

After all this is the LNER Forum.

Quite! Perhaps those who prefer a post-LNER or non-LNER way of things should be advocating those ideas on another (say BR-ER) forum?

Why? because it doesn't suit you?

[2002EarlMarischal]

After all this is the LNER Forum.

Quite! Perhaps those who prefer a post-LNER or non-LNER way of things should be advocating those ideas on another (say BR-ER) forum?

Why? because it doesn't suit you?

That's harsh!

This is the LNER Forum!

[richard]

Quite! Perhaps those who prefer a post-LNER or non-LNER way of things should be advocating those ideas on another (say BR-ER) forum?

I know I made you a mod, but forum policy is that BR A3s are definitely on topic...

I'll have to dig up the exact wording, but LNER, Constituents, and the LNER territory. In terms of post-LNER locomotives, there has to be a direct link (e.g. territory). All ex-LNER locomotives and designs are on topic. Deltics and Class 91s are on topic (they are closely linked to LNER territory). Class 37s are not (too general) unless the discussion is specific to something LNER.
Independent railways within this territory are also included - eg. the Easingwold, Mid Suffolk, the Lambton system, etc.
Similarly "Constituents" can go as far back as we wish - S&D, L&S, Y&NB, etc...

I usually let it pass (better to keep a constructive discussion going rather than use an iron fist), but the forum that wanders slightly more than my liking is the Modelling one where non-LNER subjects (as per the above definition) often creep in!

[Atlantic 3279]

Whist Eastern Region matters are very much on topic I do think those who profess an interest in the LNER ought to show enthusiasm above all for the LNER way of doing things. I suspect that some of those who say that they prefer the Crewe/Swindon liveries imposed by a BR management dominated by LMS (often ex-GWR) men do so, at least in part, to deliberately provoke true LNER fans. I question whether some of those, who clearly prefer the post 1948 way of doing things are actually "friends" of the LNER at all. Doncaster designs were drawn up so as to look right in Doncaster livery. In turn, I would not question the assertion, were it made, that NB locos for instance looked best in Bronze Gamboge, or that GE locos looked best in the originally intended blue livery. If you claim to admire something then you should admire it as it was originally meant to be.

Just pause to consider a hypothetical alternative version of history in which BR adopted LNER livery for passenger locos, and ask yourself how many Crewe/Derby/Horwich loco devotees would allow remarks alleging superiority of appearance of "their" locos in foreign Doncaster green to pass without a prickly response!

[S.A.C. Martin]

The NRM received money from Steam Railway Magazine for the repaint into BR Green back in 2004. An agreement was made and in some respects reneged on by the NRM. Now they are putting that right.

It's not a permanent livery change, and it is something they are obligated to do, quite frankly, because they said they'd do it.

I'm very much an LNER man, through and through, blood sweat and tears all. However we should be fair and pragmatic about this. The NRM are putting right a wrong they did. That's to be respected.

We all agree - I hope those of us in an LNER disposition anyway - that a return to LNER form physically and in livery is ultimately desired.

If you agree with that, do what I have done recently. I sent a letter off to the NRM saying I'd chip in at the intermediate overhaul (if one is required) towards the cost of a single chimney casting and its fittings, if others did the same.

It's called "putting my money where my mouth is" and doing the right thing by the locomotive I also donated a not inconsiderable amount to the NRM to buy and restore as 4472. I'm not going to get up in arms it being 60103 temporarily - it's how I originally met it and it will look good.

(But not, I freely admit, as good as in the apple green with a single chimney…)

[2392]

Of course there is always the "ultimate" cure for this perenial problem. Scrap the beast, as after all it would have been withdrawn anyway as obsolete equipment, just like the rest of the class and steam as a whole, but for Alan Pegler buying the engine out of service for presevation. They/it were replaced first by the English Electric Deltic on top flight East Coast services. They in turn were toppled by the 125 High Speed Trains. The 125 in turn now "play" second fiddle so to speak on the ECML to the class 92 electrics.

You could equally use the same argument with regards to all preseved "heritage" stock, as just like Flyig Scotsman they were superseded on frontline services by newer more modern stock, or as a result of the job/industry they were employed in/at were closed/discontinued, i.e. the likes of the coal or iron stone mining industries being run down as couple of examples.

[mick b]

I wouldn't scrap her . What should have been done as she is clearly worn out, was to have built a new A3 to modern standards as per Tornado and Prince of Wales.

[lar1976]

Or forget about building a new A3 and just have an original GNR A1 to keep the peace, then you can add whatever is required to update it as long as you don't fit that banjo dome and double chimney!

[Hatfield Shed]

The completely new build of an operating replica has long struck me as way and away the best solution, but sentiment is against that.

Or forget about building a new A3 and just have an original GNR A1 to keep the peace,...

Now this - built to current loading gauge requirements so it could operate on the network - would make it really interesting too. The original 180psi short travel valve locomotive gets another outing. With the 75mph limit on steam operating on the current network and a known capability to handle 600 ton trains, it would have adequate capacity for steam tour operational purposes; and would give those interested a look at the start of the Doncaster pacific development path.

That's a very important machine, as it established that the pacific format was practical within the UK loading gauge and for typical network route restrictions on the main lines, while offering an operational advantage. The GWR staff were sceptical of such a locomotive completing the run on their route during the exchange trial, never having operated their own - by then destroyed - pacific on their routes South-West of Bristol. Gresley and his staff were able to observe directly that the Castle - then the best developed express loco available - was losing performance as it approached 200 miles run, which did not happen on the pacific thanks to the much larger ash pan volume available relative to grate area. The correct path was confirmed.

[1H was 2E]

Some posts have regretted the way that many things LNER were, under BR, deliberately destroyed by LMS or GW (???? - apart from passenger livery) biased management.
Has anyone noticed that, similarly, the other constituents of the LNER were subsumed under the GNR way of doing things?
I think that, generally, the GWR is over-rated and wouldn't defend them usually - but didn't the WR at Swindon improve V2 performance considerably?
I'll go back to hiding behind the sofa.