Stirling Tenders

[drmditch]

There was some discussion about these tenders on other threads last year.
I took some pictures last year when there were two sizes of tender at Shildon.
I've finally got round to posting them on here for those people with GNR affections.
These are shrunk to 1/4 size for posting. If anybody would like larger versions do PM me.

[MikeTrice]

Thanks for these.

I found it interesting to see the "new" old tender in the last image now has what I assume is a toolbox mounted on the leading right hand side.

I have been using the "new" tender as a basis for my HO Bachmann Emily conversion and as a result have been trying to determining the details that cannot normally be seen from the typical 3/4 view images. It is my belief, and I am happy for others to agree/disagree that when first introduce the class "D" tenders did not have the forward mounted toolbox, nor did they have the conical tender vents, nor the extra plate that divided the coal space from the filler cap. These were all added by Ivatt. At the same time a number of the tenders were given additional blanking plates behind the coal bars. Some also had the front plate increased in height.

My issue is what the detail looked like in the pre Ivatt days? What shape was the water filler? Photos suggest that there were probably two toolboxes mounted one either side of the filler cap but it is not really clear and does not appear to be universal

Out of interest, for the restored tender as it is currently, how is the forward toolbox mounted?

[2392]

Yes indeed thank you your selection of photos, drmditch.

Interesting what a differance changing the tenders has made to the look of No 1. Makes her look slightly more modern, not much mind you. Granted I'd heard tell the the previous Sturrock tender was the "wrong" type to be paired with No 1, but some how it looked right for such an "old/antiquated" engine.

Now being a little light hearted, with both tenders paired together behind No 1. I can't help having thoughts of that young whipper snapper 4472 Flying Scotsman when preserved with two tenders and all. Making it possible to extend the engines operating range for water. Or for that matter the Thomas the Tank engine tale, when Flying Scotsman visit the Isle of Sodor and Henry gets jealous of 4472 with two tenders and ends up with half a dozen old tenders that had been converted for use as sludge carriers , thanks to a certain little Blue Tank Engine who admitted that he didn't understand all the fuss that big engines made over tenders......

[notascoobie]

Thanks for these.

I found it interesting to see the "new" old tender in the last image now has what I assume is a toolbox mounted on the leading right hand side.

I have been using the "new" tender as a basis for my HO Bachmann Emily conversion and as a result have been trying to determining the details that cannot normally be seen from the typical 3/4 view images. It is my belief, and I am happy for others to agree/disagree that when first introduce the class "D" tenders did not have the forward mounted toolbox, nor did they have the conical tender vents, nor the extra plate that divided the coal space from the filler cap. These were all added by Ivatt. At the same time a number of the tenders were given additional blanking plates behind the coal bars. Some also had the front plate increased in height.

My issue is what the detail looked like in the pre Ivatt days? What shape was the water filler? Photos suggest that there were probably two toolboxes mounted one either side of the filler cap but it is not really clear and does not appear to be universal

Out of interest, for the restored tender as it is currently, how is the forward toolbox mounted?

Thanks to drmditch for posting the photos.

Like Mike I am trying to weedle out some details concerning Stirling Type D tenders. My current primary interest lies in the 3850 gal tenders built to go with the A1 class singles. However in looking at every photo I can find of them, I'm also seeing a lot of other Type D tenders. I have also corresponded with "John Coffin," draughtsman for the scale drawings in the GNRS Tenders book.

My view is that the toolboxes were fixed on the top deck of the tender rear alongside the water filler. There could be one or two toolboxes depending on loco type. At the end of the Stirling era, there was a period of transition until Ivatt was able to proceed with his own plans. During that inter-regnum some tenders were modified to have a higher front plates, with a shelf to take a single tool box on the RHS and with a cut-out for the brake handle. In the early years of Ivatt's tenure, water troughs were introduced on the ECML and there was a need to retro-fit Stirling type D tenders with water pick-up gear. There is a drawing of the equipment in the GNRS book. I believe that the conical tender vents were introduced to permit rapid filling of the water tank from water troughs at this time.

It is noticable that Ivatt introduced high and curved front plates to his tenders and you need to watch out for them when looking at old tender photos. The change-over period produced some tenders which go against what I have seen written. In particular I had understood that all Ivatt tenders had steel buffer beams. It took me a while to realise that some photos caused potential confusion because, although it was not possible to discern the frame cut-out shape, there was plainly a wooden buffer beam. However, these tenders actually revealled themselves to be Ivatt tenders after more detailed examination.

There are plenty of traps and I don't think anyone knows all the answers. Additionally, I have yet to see a clear photo of the front of a Stirling Type D tender in Stirling days. Accordingly, I suggest you make your best guess of what your tender should be like and just build it. I don't think anyone will know any better!

Good luck.

Regards,

Vernon

[john coffin]

When doing the drawings for the tender book, one of the most frustrating things was that nowhere was it shown that tool boxes were even included on Sturrock, and Stirling tenders. Only later, post Ivatt tenders had any detail about tool boxes.

It is true that Vernon and I have been corresponding, but I do think he is wrong to some extent. The tenders he believes to be Ivatt were in our view, generally built during the period between the death of Stirling and the arrival of Ivatt at Doncaster, which was about 3 months, during which time, Matthewman was in charge. It appears from some scraps I have, that outshopped were some interim tenders which basically seem to have had Ivatt underframes, but Stirling tops rather like those from R20/3850. the drawings are numbered quite late in the series, and after a number of Ivatt tenders, so it is difficult to know what they actually mean. Sadly Malcolm did not get to see them, so we were unable to discuss it. However, my scraps do not I think show the rear buffer beam which is frustrating to say the least.

I have not actually seen evidence that the Stirling tenders were fitted with Scoops, only that there are drawings of a proposal, and since most of the 3850's were actually fitted to Goods Engines, there would have been no value. We have a major problem in terms of knowledge about pre grouping tender allocations, sadly Willie Yeadon did not have the time to get all the then current data and annotate it. Remember that water troughs were not introduced under Stirling, rather Ivatt, and then only after about 1898 when the first Atlantics were introduced and the beginning of non stop runs beyond Grantham. Since most Stirling runs stopped at Grantham there had been no need to provide scoops and water.

Mike,I guess it depends on when you are building your Single for, if around the time of the 1909 exhibition then there are some photos, otherwise more available for 1925 to show where the toolboxes were, or I have some photos of the tender taken in 2003 at Doncaster if you would like to look
Paul

[MikeTrice]

Paul, thanks for the offer to see some of your photos of the tender in 2003. Can I take you up on these as there is so little available elsewhere?

Out of interest do you know the dimensions of the tool boxes? I note that earlier ones were flat topped and later, presumably Ivatt ones, had a curved top. I also found an interesting photo somewhere showing two toolboxes mounted at the front of a tender, the one on the left (right hand side facing front of loco) was lettered "Food" and the one on t'other side labeled "Tools".

[john coffin]

Hi Mike, will sort out what I can soonest tonight

The honest answer is that I do not have a specific set of dimensions for tool boxes on Stirling tenders, but will see what I can find in the drawings I have
somehow, the detail drawings do not appear anywhere, so I have always assumed that they were made in the tender shop and designed there too.

Vernon has suggested there was an earlier Ivatt tender, well that is sort of true as I have alluded before, but it is much more complex,
R21 in the tender list is certainly a Stirling tender, 22/23 are the first Ivatt's designed in the LDO and entered on the register. However, it seems that there were 10 tenders, nos 1336-1340 and 1361-1365 which were as I have said built with apparently Ivatt underframes and Stirling tanks. Some of them went on the first Ivatt 4-4-0's all of which had faintly Stirling details, the first for instance have a longer cab and the boiler set back further than later ones. The tenders are 3720 gallon, but the only reference is drawing R31 which is details of the scoop arrangement for this tender, but is dated 1903,
7 years after Ivatt arrived. Since it is so difficult to identify specific tenders from photographs, I have not been able to clarify whether there were wooden beams at one or both ends, but the drawing is certainly not clear since it is a scrap view. Many might I think mistake the metal cage within which the scoop operating gear is contained, as showing a wooden beam. My feeling is that the outside frames went all the way to the front, so the drag beam would have been covered in photographs.

Paul

[notascoobie]

Hello again Mike and Paul.

As you might have gathered, Paul and me have a slight difference of view about the tenders produced around the time of what I call "the inter-regnum." The difference seems quite small but you know what railway chaps are like. In comparison to "flange wars" on R*W*b this is tiny!

For what it's worth, the best source of photos Type D tenders in their later years that I've found is in Yeadon's vol 37A (J1-J4). There are loads of photos of Class C & D tenders, together with some from the inter-regnum. The one I keep looking at is the 3850 gal Type D on page 61 which, I think, shows a scoop operating handle adjacent to the far side water valve hockey stick. I reckon you can tell the goods and passenger tenders apart from the location of the springs and axleboxes. On Type D tenders the larger wheels mean that the springs are located higher up the frame than on the Type C ones.

Although water troughs weren't introduced until c1902, the remaining Stirling Singles were still working express passenger trains for several years, although routinely coupled to another engine. As such I'm thinking that some of the Class D tenders must have been equipped with water scoops to permit such workings. However, since I can't work out the tank venting arrangements, I could well be completely wrong!

It's a minefield but I'm not sure anyone has concrete information. Choose what you want and good luck!

Regards

Vernon

[john coffin]

I think Vernon that we disagree means that we are looking carefully at things. It was Malcolm's view, and continues to be mine that it is almost impossible to tell what type of tender a loco carries just by looking at the photos. You can generalise, but it is certainly impossible to be sure you can specify the water or coal capacity. I think the tender behind 4084 in Yeadon 37a is in fact a 3500 gallon one to R19, not least because of the overhang or lack thereof at the rear of the tender/ tank.

However, I do agree that there appears to be a scoop lever on the far side of the tender in the drawing. Also a toolbox cross ways in the front.

No 1002 as it arrived at York had and even when launched in May last year, had Air vents on the tank which are to do with scoop gear, since they were not built with it. Maurice Boddy had a word with them, and they said they would see about removing them, if it has happened yet, I do not know.

As you say it is a minefield, but by looking and asking we might well find out more

Paul

[john coffin]

Vernon I have found at least one Stirling tender that had a scoop fitted, but not sure when, also it is of an odd capacity.

I checked out Yeadons vol 37A as you suggested and found the J4's with 3 different outside spring Stirling tenders, one C type,
and two D type, but of different capacities.
One thing I am still not sure about is whether you can categorise all the 3850 types by virtue of the coal rails.

Interestingly, I bought 3 colour postcards of GNR locos on Ebay over the weekend, The two Ivatt locos, a 4-4-0 and a 4-2-2 have different shaped cut outs for their tenders, but are both supposed to be Ivatt, so even there we have to be careful.

Paul

[Horsetan]

The thing that strikes me about the Stirling tender is how massive it is compared to No.1.

Now that the Sturrock tender is "spare", will there be an appeal in future to build a new Sturrock replica engine

[2392]

The thing that strikes me about the Stirling tender is how massive it is compared to No.1.

Now that the Sturrock tender is "spare", will there be an appeal in future to build a new Sturrock replica engine

Well now Horsetan, that's an idea. Especially as there are so few engines from what I consider to be the railway "Dark ages", the mid-late Victorian era what 1850-1900. There are after all several early engines from the 1800-40 period i.e. Puffing Billy, Locomotion, Rocket, San Pereil, Derwent and Lion.

[Rlangham]

Maybe they could use it as part of a recreated 1915 armoured train! One of the gun carriages still exists, last seen at the Museum of Army Transport at Beverley and seems to be the only piece of rolling stock from there not accounted for....

[notascoobie]

Interesting, what was a GNR tender doing in a NER armoured train?

Standing by for educating!

regards,

Vernon

[third-rail]

For more coal and water for what appears to be a side tank loco?,which would probably have limited supplies for say 8hrs duty.without having break off if in action.