ECJS Coaches for No 1 in 1938

[MikeTrice]

I didn't think I was imagining it:

[StevieG]

I have no special interest in the train or the loco or rolling stock, but what a fantastic and interesting record!
Thanks very much posting Mike.
I would observe that the photo's caption, placing it as at Knebworth, is in error as there have never been six tracks in that area : More likely that the image was captured somewhere between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden, where the railway did have that many tracks.

[Seagull]

Brilliant find!

Notice the total weight of the '1888' train is almost exactly the same as the weight of the engine and tender of the 1938 Scotsman!

I bet Patrick Stirling would have had a particulary pithy comment about that.

Alan

[1H was 2E]

I have been spurred into action! Can't scan the RO page (after declining the offer on a number of occasions, , Microsoft finally managed to dump Windows 8.1 on me without asking first, causing lots of problems) so just photographed it. Not bad, apart from the parallax effect towards the edge...
This is the RCTS run in September. It does show, in my opinion, a great conformity of outline. The thirds and lav composites can be clearly distinguished too. From the September 1938 RO.

[Wavey]

Interesting to see the 1938 article describe the carriages having been 'preserved' by the LNER! As far as I know none survived into preservation.

[65447]

I have no special interest in the train or the loco or rolling stock, but what a fantastic and interesting record!
Thanks very much posting Mike.
I would observe that the photo's caption, placing it as at Knebworth, is in error as there have never been six tracks in that area : More likely that the image was captured somewhere between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden, where the railway did have that many tracks.

It's the same photograph as in the LNER Magazine, the caption of which states 'near Welwyn Garden City'. Above that photograph is one including the leading brake vehicle, but it's not sharp enough to read any running number.

[65447]

Interesting to see the 1938 article describe the carriages having been 'preserved' by the LNER! As far as I know none survived into preservation.

The 'preservation' was in 1938! The vehicles were restorations at the time, which might mean the same thing to a journalist.

[john coffin]

Thanks Mike saves me a trip to British Library
or gives me another excuse for looking for other detail, and will add to the knowledge we have, along with the photos.

Will try to get it all together soon, and try to find the build dates of the carriages used.

Paul

[65447]

I was browsing John Crawley's 'LNER in Focus' and discovered a short section on this train, illustrated by various photographs taken by Leslie Hanson at KX, Huntingdon and Peterborough, one of which shows one of the brake vans as number 102, built 1883 (by reference to Ken Hoole's Illustrated History of ECJS).

It struck me that Les Hanson may well have photographed the remaining carriages and a search of his collection might also be helpful.

John Crawley notes also that with respect to the carriages following their restoration that no one had the sense, or more likely the space, to store them and they were broken up. Bearing in mind that within a year the collection at York was being dispersed to protect it from enemy action that could have contributed to that outcome.

[Bill Bedford]

I was browsing John Crawley's 'LNER in Focus' and discovered a short section on this train, illustrated by various photographs taken by Leslie Hanson at KX, Huntingdon and Peterborough, one of which shows one of the brake vans as number 102, built 1883 (by reference to Ken Hoole's Illustrated History of ECJS).

Illustrated History of ECJS gives two entries for van 102

102A, Diagram 37*, Built DON 1883, wheels 6, Condemned 6/13
102, Diagram 36, Built COW 1903, wheels 8, to GN 4/28 renumbered 4035.

Which means that the van numbered 102 in the photo is not the same van that was ECJS 102, since that one scrapped in 1913.

My guess is that all the coaches in this train were ex-GNR coaches built to the same drawings used for the 1883 set, but at a later date. As wooden bodied coaches seemed to have a working life of about 40 years (± 5 years) is seem unlikely that any built in the 1880s would have survived in a fit state to be tarted up for a 1938 publicity stunt. Of course it would be quite in keeping with the contemporary ideas of historicism to give the stock numbers that were know to have been used in the late 1880s.

*The page for diagram 37 is missing from the ECJS book held by the HMRS. This suggest that all these vans had been condemned or transferred before the grouping, or possibly before WW1

[swhite01]

There were a number of pictures taken of the train by LPC (E.R Wetherset?)at various locations.... there were also further pictures taken of the coaches at the time of the picture of 92 as shown in Ken Hoole's ECJS volume.

Taking the above into account and using the stock shown in the Railway Gazette composition the vehicle's behind the single appear to be:- Luggage Brake 102, 5 Cmpt Third 141, 5cmpt Composite ??, First Lav 91, First Lav 92, 5 Cmpt Composite 127 and Luggage Brake 103.

In the vehicle photos, Third compartments have the ECJS written motif on the doors, First compartments have the quite distinctive circular motif with what appears to be a white belt containing the ECJS name with the heraldic shield contained within. This is also carried on the duckets on the Luggage brakes.

From the well used photo of the service standing at Stevenage, alongside A4 4498, the vehicle after the luggage brake has doors showing "THIRD" and the 1st class motif from this it would appear that 103 was on the north end of the train.

Re the location of the photo in the Railway Gazette it is most likely between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City... just a point though on StevieG's comment re Knebworth, there were six tracks from the north end of the station through the cutting to the lime quarries either side of the line to the north of Dears End lane bridge. These outside lines, were removed during the track rationalisation following demise of the goods yard in the last 60's. The outside lines were sidings and once the small quarries were closed the sidings used for coach storage. The line on the up side also being used as a head shunt in the good yard.

Hope the above is of use,

Steve

GNRS new website - www.gnrsociety.com

[MikeTrice]

As you say, a nice picture of 92. You can even see the external communication cord.

[dlester]

I didn't think I was imagining it:

FlyingScotsman1938Single.jpg

Mike,

Thank you very much indeed for that. I'll now integrate what I've found out with the train diagram.

First the GNR diagram numbers for these vehicles (LNER numbers in parentheses).

(All widths over cantrail, lengths over body)

GNR Diag 303 (LNER 4220) Full Brake 29' x 7' 11.125" wide, 20' 0.5" w/b
GNR Diag 245 (LNER 4179) 5 Compartment Third 32' 1.5" x 8' 2" wide w/b 22' 5"
GNR Diag 155 (LNER 4078) Composite 34' 10.5" x 8' 2" wide w/b 24' 6"
GNR Diag 84 (LNER 4047) Toilet First 33' 8.25" x 8' 2" wide 24' w/b
GNR Diag 84 (LNER 4047) Toilet First 33' 8.25" x 8' 2" wide 24' w/b
GNR Diag 155 (LNER 4078) Composite 34' 10.5" x 8' 2" wide w/b 24' 6"
GNR Diag 303 (LNER 4220) Full Brake 29' x 7' 11.125" wide, 20' 0.5" w/b

Now, onto the individual coaches.

Diag 84 First.

There really were two ex-ECJS coaches in the list: 92 (withdrawn 05/36), and 121 (no withdrawal date), both
built in 1884. Transferred into GN stock in 1904. Notice how these two vehicles are the two with most pronounced
oxalic acid bleached panels. I strongly suspect that number 92 was lying around Doncaster awaiting scrapping,
perhaps with remnants of it's old livery showing, and that the idea of restoring an ECJS Flying Scotsman was
inspired by this vehicle. I'd be interested in whether the other similar vehicle is numbered 121 or not.

Diag 245 Third.

All ex-ECJS vehicles (numbers 113-116, built 1879, and 138, 140-1, built 1888) were of length 30' 10.5" (vs 32' 1.5"),
and there are now no details of their LNER/GNR numbers. This probably means that they were scrapped prior to 1914.

Known withdrawals in the mid-1930s of 32' 1.5" stock include: 41312 (1/38), 41334 (2/38), 41453 (1/38), 42099 (3/38).
Interestingly, two 30' 10.5" withdrawals were available: 485 (2/38), 4780 (2/38). There's also a big question mark over
GNR 1428. shown as 31' 1.5" in some records 32' 1.5" in others. Withdrawn in 4/38.

Diag 155

Two were withdrawn in the correct period: LNER 41547 (?/38?), and LNER 41574 (4/37).

None were ever cascaded by ECJS, as none were ever built for the ECJS. All built Diag 155, 1895.

Alternative diagrams for lav. composite derived from the ECJS vehicles are: Diagrams 146, 147, 151, 154. All of
these are in fact locker lav. composites, and the vehicles in the photos show no sign of the locker.

Suggested ECJS numbering for the alternative diagrams:

d146 luggage lav composite (36') 135, 137 withdrawn 10/37, 02/36. 133-137 dated 1888
d147 lug lav comp 165-170 (36') 168 withdrawn 02/38 dated 1890.
d151 lug lav comp 73, 75, 96, 97 (35' 6") 1883, 1884
d154 lug lav comp 65, 66, 23 (35' 3") 1883,4.

Diag 303 Full brake

A number of vans were withdrawn in the mid 1930s. ECJS numbering is affected by Gresley's
renumbering.

[jwealleans]

Resurrecting this thread after however long, I have started building this train. I have just downloaded Mike's post from the Railway Gazette to print out and note that the two full brakes are shown there as the 32' diagram, not the 29' of D303. Is there any other definitive evidence one way or the other?

[MikeTrice]

The train diagram above suggests that the lengths are over buffers