The caladonian goods yard in the 1950s

[Biggles]

I wonder if anyone can tell me if this goods yard was anything to do with the 1955 film the ladykillers as in the film there is a line running behind the house of mrs lopsided that could have run into the yard, any information or maps would be handy Thanks

[swhite01]

There are 2 early threads on the forum covering a) The Ladykillers film and b) Caledonian goods yard. Place either title in the search pane and it will return the relevant pages.

Hope of help
Steve

[Mickey]

In the video or dvd called "Steam on 35mm in the 30s,40s,50s" by the late John Huntley there are a number of film out-takes from the 1955 film The Ladykillers at the end section of the video/dvd to do with the Eastern Region which feature several panoromaic angle views from the top of and the top left of Copenhagen tunnel looking down into Belle Isle which also feature a number of main line departures hauled by A4s & A3s as well as several suburban trains hauled by N2s with a couple of V2s on Goods trains departing the Goods Yard as well.

The single track line that is shown in the film at the back of the old house is called by John Huntley "a feeder line" running between Kings Cross Goods Yard & Caledonian Road Goods Yard on the North London line.

[kudu]

...The single track line that is shown in the film at the back of the old house is called by John Huntley "a feeder line" running between Kings Cross Goods Yard & Caledonian Road Goods Yard on the North London line.

Strictly, the Caledonian Road Goods Yard isn't ON the North London line but adjacent to it with no physical connection. So the "feeder line" is the only rail route to the yard. A while back I queried the reason for the GN building it here when it was so awkward to build and operate the access to it, reversal being necessary.

It appears that the excellent model of the area (well photographed too) does not quite accurately depict the precise location of the goods yard, possibly because of space limitations. I only mention this as a caution not to rely too much on the model as a precise replica of the area. The house itself stands over Copenhagen Tunnel and not on the site of the goods yard, as one of the linked posts seems to state.

Incidentally, there was also a direct link between the North London and GN line (for NL eastbound to GN northbound trains) which descended and went under the Caledonian Road line as it climbed, joining the GN more or less under the bridge carrying the NLR over the GN line. This wasn't much used as a) it was steep, limiting train lengths and b) the GN lacked the capacity here to handle much traffic and the link at Harringay off the Gospel Oak-Barking line was therefore preferred. (There was also of course the Canonbury link for NL westbound trains to reach the GN, including passenger trains from Broad Street.)

Kudu

[Mickey]

...The single track line that is shown in the film at the back of the old house is called by John Huntley "a feeder line" running between Kings Cross Goods Yard & Caledonian Road Goods Yard on the North London line.

Strictly, the Caledonian Road Goods Yard isn't ON the North London line but adjacent to it with no physical connection. So the "feeder line" is the only rail route to the yard. A while back I queried the reason for the GN building it here when it was so awkward to build and operate the access to it, reversal being necessary.

To be fair to the late departed John Huntley i can't recall if he actually says that the Caledonian Road Goods Yard was on the North London line (or Railway?) that was my little touch folks being that the yard was situated along side the North London Railway in NLR territory.

The yard was still there back in 1970 i vaguely recall seeing it from a passing Broad Street-Richmond train, the roads were still layed in possibly 8-10 roads but i presume it was probably closed or on the verge of closing by that date??.

[kudu]

I just wanted to add that, enjoyable as the John Huntley 35mm series is, his commentary reveals to me that he knows more about film (and buses, btw) than railways. Several innacuracies, and a narrow focus on the locomotive. For example, the opening sequences at the top of Camden Bank fail to mention you can see the bankers dropping off - and those locos were more interesting than the Stanier 4-6-0s and Pacifics pulling the trains!

Kudu

[StevieG]

I have always understood (part-informed by talking with a signalman about 30 years ago who had manned Goods & Mineral Junction box at some time during the film-making) that the exterior of Mrs. Wilberforce's house (although scenes in "The Ladykillers" filmed from the inside of the house are done in such a way as to position it at the south end of Argyle St., opposite St.Pancras station frontage's SE corner) was actually built at the SW end of the then Frederica Street [approximating to the SW end of the present day, multi-legged, Coniston Way : The street layout, names, and buildings, have all changed during the intervening years], and so was not 'on' Copenhagen Tunnel but was just a few yards NE of the tunnel's eastern bore's southern portal.
This house exterior was more or less just a convincing shell specially constructed for the filming [and which, after some non-filming hours' unwelcome 'attention' by young locals, they were offered several shillings each per day to 'Leave all alone', which worked.].

There are many interesting photos of the time, of the areas featured in the film, on the relevant "Reel Streets" webpages, of which one of this film's five pages can be found here : -
- http://www.reelstreets.com/index.php/re ... s&start=40 -
- (those photos which do NOT have a red outline indicate that hovering a mouse pointer over them should reveal a modern shot of, as near as practicably possible these days, the same scene, as described by the green part of the caption.) :
Particularly see photo 'No.' "lady048" where the house shell can be seen in relation to the afore-mentioned tunnel's eastern bore (disused since the mid-1970s), and the real properties then flanking both sides of Frederica Street.

Referring to a previously-posted item/query about when the 'Cally Coal Yard' may have closed, the following photo may be of interest :

[ Photo by, and its copyright with, Steve Gwinnett.]

Although individual lines in the Caledonian Goods & Coal yard may have remained in situ for longer, the above 1970 photo, looking south from the North London Line bridge, shows that the access line up to the yard had already had its track lifted at that time: [ It was the line rising from No.9 Arch of York Way viaduct (background), and passing first, over (left) the line into Nos.10-12 Arch Sidings of 'the North Yard', then immediately behind (in the photo, to the right of) the operating floor of Goods & Mineral signal box, and passing (right) over the North London Incline line before it continued to rise steeply northwards to the reversal point behind the south side of Blundell Street from where it curved eastwards, running above, and about 20 yards back from, the Copenhagen Tunnel portals and past the end of Frederica Street, and on into the yard.

P.S. Just found the following 2010 post by the late & great Andy Rush in the Dec.2005 - Apr.2013 "Caledonian Road Goods Depot" thread in this "General LNER Discussion" forum :

Caledonian Road goods depot opened in 1878 and closed 30.10.1967.
Source: Chronology of London Railways, H V Borley

See also The Great Northern Railway Vol II by John Wrottesley, p65

: A reminder that it may always be worth doing a few searches in this website before posting new enquiries for information.

[Mickey]

Goods And Mineral Junction was a nice box and a nice job although by the start of the 1970s it was fairly quiet from Saturday morning (early turn) through to the following Monday morning (early turn) the 'Goods Yard' being quite dead over the weekends by then although the box was still open continuously though.

The stop signal that is shown in Stevie's photograph as being pulled off coming from the old 'top shed' roads had a board attached to the signal post below the arm but i can't recall what was written on it??.

I've got an S&T diagram that features most of Goods And Mineral box from the Arrival & Departure roads to & from Five Arch shunting frame direction to just beyond the North London line overbridge but it isn't a complete diagram though because it doesn't show the area on the immediate approach to Copenhagen goods line tunnel, anyway i may try and post the diagram in the near future it was part of a bunch of S&T diagrams that i obtained in 1970 as previously mentioned in another thread.

[StevieG]

" Goods And Mineral Junction was a nice box and a nice job although by the start of the 1970s it was fairly quiet from Saturday morning (early turn) through to the following Monday morning (early turn) the 'Goods Yard' being quite dead over the weekends by then although the box was still open continuously though. .... "

My visits started a year or three before 1970, and at that time, the yard 'closed' and the box also closed (left unmanned) at the end of Saturday Early turn, though I don't know when they were scheduled to open again.
I don't know for sure, but had an impression that "the Goods Yard" was not normally used for Ballast (engineering) train activity at the weekend then.
But once the KX Resignalling Project & modernisation got truly under way in the 1970s, particularly electrification for which a materials base was set up somewhere in the yard, this changed, so I can well believe that the box's booked hours may have then become 'Continuous'.

" .... The stop signal that is shown in Stevie's photograph as being pulled off coming from the old 'top shed' roads had a board attached to the signal post below the arm but i can't recall what was written on it??. .... "

By 1968, the proper Engine Lines curving round into 'Top Shed' had gone, hence their paths are trackless in my 1970 photo.
That signal (No.98) applied to all the Nos.3-8 Arch Sidings of 'the north yard', and was normally left 'Off' by its lever being Reverse [and also, when practicable, 95 'outlet' miniature to the Spur was also often left 'Off' (as it was when my photo was taken) ], to allow the shunters to make between-siding movements, unless something needed to be signalled into those sidings.
As study of R.Pike's earlier-posted diagram of G&M box should show, there was a mechanical gong on 98 signal's post which automatically generated one dull 'clang' when the signal was put back to Danger to draw attention to the signal's change, and according to a 'Single Line Drawing' of the box's area that I have details of, the board on the same post apparently read "Notice to Enginemen & Shunters. No engine or train to stand north of this signal when at Danger", though I never went to view its actual wording.

[Mickey]

I just assumed the box was always open continuous Stevie because as was the custom back then there was always a light left on over the book during the evening & nights like in most s/boxes that were either open or closed back then and i have a vague feeling i recall sometimes seeing movement from within the box at night possibly around the 1970-75 period because it was my usual habit to always look up at Goods And Mineral on passing through Belle Isle either during the day or night.

I believe i recall a train crew diagram for a Kings Cross driver & secondman around 1974-75 (a no.5 gang job but with no guard the guards duties were performed by the Kings Cross shunter i believe?) of working no.2 shunt loco (sometimes a Brush class 31 or sometimes a class 08 shunter) of taking several short wheel base empty oil tanks from Passenger Loco upto the Goods Yard and then bringing back several full short wheel base oil tanks back to the Passenger Loco i vaguely recall this job took place just around midnight on a Sunday night/Monday morning obviously Goods And Mineral box would have been open.

Yes your wording of the notice board beneath no.98 signal sounds correct Stevie not that i knew it off by heart i only saw it on several occasions at close quarters around 1974-75.

[StevieG]

" .... I believe i recall a train crew diagram for a Kings Cross driver & secondman around 1974-75 (a no.5 gang job but with no guard the guards duties were performed by the Kings Cross shunter i believe?) of working no.2 shunt loco (sometimes a Brush class 31 or sometimes a class 08 shunter) of taking several short wheel base empty oil tanks from Passenger Loco upto the Goods Yard and then bringing back several full short wheel base oil tanks back to the Passenger Loco i vaguely recall this job took place just around midnight on a Sunday night/Monday morning obviously Goods And Mineral box would have been open. .... "

From 'Control', I remember a mid-1970s working by '2 Shunt' like this Micky, though I forget which days/times it was supposed to run.
We called it 'The Oil trip', and IIRC its official 'Trip' number was 6T11 (so I think '1 Shunt's number may have officially been 0T10), an 08 was more often the loco; And I don't recall it calling at 'the Goods Yard' though it may well have been booked to, but I thought its total journeys were between 'Passenger Loco' and 'Clarence Yard' (Finsbury Park Depot), though I couldn't now swear to that.

[StevieG]

...The single track line that is shown in the film at the back of the old house is called by John Huntley "a feeder line" running between Kings Cross Goods Yard & Caledonian Road Goods Yard on the North London line.

" Strictly, the Caledonian Road Goods Yard isn't ON the North London line but adjacent to it with no physical connection. So the "feeder line" is the only rail route to the yard. A while back I queried the reason for the GN building it here when it was so awkward to build and operate the access to it, reversal being necessary.

It appears that the excellent model of the area (well photographed too) does not quite accurately depict the precise location of the goods yard, possibly because of space limitations. I only mention this as a caution not to rely too much on the model as a precise replica of the area. The house itself stands over Copenhagen Tunnel and not on the site of the goods yard, as one of the linked posts seems to state. ...." ... ".... Kudu "

Biggles, Kudu et al,
Possibly, previous 'The Ladykillers' info./images researched/provided online (not in these forums) through the efforts of a Martin Underwood may assist some in understanding how the GN line to the Caledonian yard fitted in to the railway landscape of the general 'Belle Isle'/ Kings Cross Goods Yard area : -
-see http://www.martinunderwood.f9.co.uk/Lad ... ges/large/ : And in particular, open the last-listed item, named "os1966.jpg".

[Mickey]

" .... I believe i recall a train crew diagram for a Kings Cross driver & secondman around 1974-75 (a no.5 gang job but with no guard the guards duties were performed by the Kings Cross shunter i believe?) of working no.2 shunt loco (sometimes a Brush class 31 or sometimes a class 08 shunter) of taking several short wheel base empty oil tanks from Passenger Loco upto the Goods Yard and then bringing back several full short wheel base oil tanks back to the Passenger Loco i vaguely recall this job took place just around midnight on a Sunday night/Monday morning obviously Goods And Mineral box would have been open. .... "

From 'Control', I remember a mid-1970s working by '2 Shunt' like this Micky, though I forget which days/times it was supposed to run.
We called it 'The Oil trip', and IIRC its official 'Trip' number was 6T11, an 08 was more often the loco; And I don't recall it calling at 'the Godds Yard' though it may well have been booked to, but I thought its total journeys were between 'Passenger Loco' and 'Clarence Yard' (Finsbury Park Depot), though I couldn't now swear to that.

When i done my little stint as a secondman after WGC box had done away with the telegraph lads position in March 1974 i transferred onto the loco at Kings Cross for about 18 months and i recall one night during mid-1974 of being rostered on this 'oil trip' diagram with a driver and in fact the job was actually part of the no.2 shunt diagram which on that particular night was a class 08 shunter i recall but the 'oil trip' didn't run that night for some reason which i thought to myself was a shame because i was actually interested to see what the 'Goods Yard' was like at that time of night??.

Also i'm fairly sure Stevie that this 'oil trip' working was to take place around midnight when it left Kings Cross and to return to Kings Cross about an hour later also i'm fairly sure it was on a Sunday night into Monday morning and it was the 'Goods Yard' and not Clarence Yard at Finsbury Park.

[Seagull]

As I have always been interested in the operations in and around the Kings Cross Top Shed I have been following this thread very carefully.
Thanks StevieG for the fascinating photos, I have never seen any views like these before.

Doing a temporary thread hi-jack;- I realise there was no signal box in the loco shed area as there were practically no signals.
But the points, were they controlled from a ground frame(s) or were they controlled at each point location?

Alan

[Mickey]

As I have always been interested in the operations in and around the Kings Cross Top Shed I have been following this thread very carefully.
Thanks StevieG for the fascinating photos, I have never seen any views like these before.

Doing a temporary thread hi-jack;- I realise there was no signal box in the loco shed area as there were practically no signals.
But the points, were they controlled from a ground frame(s) or were they controlled at each point location?

Looking at Stevie's photograph it shows a view of Goods And Mineral Junction s/box and the Kings Cross Goods Yard with it's a ray of Arrival & Departure lines looking roughly in a south westerly direction from the North London line overbridge.

Seen at the very top of the picture is the York road overbridge running the full length of the picture well about the 3rd or 4th arch from the left and just the otherside of the York road overbridge was FIVE ARCH shunting frame or shunting cabin which worked a number of points, miniture signals, ground disc signals and a couple of full size semaphore stop signals from memory in that area of the Goods Yard. The Goods Yards Arrival & Departure roads splayed out in various directions after passing Five Arch shunting cabin some roads curving off towards the left and the covered potato market area while other roads carried straight on for a further distance before becoming part of many siding roads in a huge open area beyond Five Arch before halting on the edges of the Regents canal.

As for the area at Top Shed the roads leading off to the middle right arches and beyond the York road overbridge arches and towards Top Shed as far as i know all the points within that area would have been hand worked points.