A Problem of Pronunciation

[DD_Fenrir]

Wonder if anyone here can provide an answer to a curiosity I had leafing through the O.S. Nock book 'Gresley Pacifics: Volume One' and seeing a piccy of a rather elegant example named 'Cicero'? Instinctively I read it as 'Siss-air-ro' but suddenly thought it could be pronounced in an Italianette manner as 'Chee-kair-ro', or Chik-air-ro', or perhaps - and more unlikey - 'Kik-air-ro'. What's the consensus?

[richard]

I've go for the soft S and perhaps a shorter second vowel (Siss-ar-ro) - which is how the Roman geezer is usually pronounced (or is these days eg. on the TV drama "Rome" and I've heard a local classics professor pronounce it this way)

[john coffin]

remember it is the name of a classic winning racehorse, owned almost certainly by landed gentry, so it would be the classical greek usage of the word,
almost certainly as Richard says.

Indeed quick research says it was owned by Lord Roseberry the ex Prime Minister, and lived for a total of 21 years, so it must have made a few bob for its owners as a stud horse after winning the Derby as one of the shortest priced successful favourites.

Paul

[drmditch]

Thank you for the information about the horse. The gentleman concerned was Roman - not Greek! (Unless someone revisionist historian has entirely re-written the 1st Century while I wasn't looking.) He certainly wrote what I was always taught was the epitome (and pronounce that how you like) of elegant classical Latin.

I wonder how many people at Doncaster actually remembered the horses names?

[john coffin]

since so many of the early "poets, thinkers and so on" were from both races I get confused, and like many did not do classical Greek or Latin, must have had my learning from the race course rather

Plainly someone in the naming office at Doncaster knew who the horses were and what classic races they won, but some of them were really obscure that is for sure. I was never quite sure why they used Derby winners, when the 2000 guineas was the local race and at least in GNR/LNER territory.

Paul

[john coffin]

And of course, I forgot the St Leger, which is of course the most famous Doncaster race, and the source for many A1/3 names.

also since Pythagorus lived in and set up a school in Sardinia, maybe I can be forgiven for forgetting the Cicero was a Roman

[StevieG]

Regarding the original query, from somewhere way back in the mists of young spotters' notebooks times, I had formed some (uninformed) opinion that pronouncing it 'See-sair-o', (or possibly 'See-ser-o'), was the way to go. But that is in no way to suggest that I am right and others wrong - just my ancient belief.

[Hatfield Shed]

Regarding the horsing around, it was a far bigger event relative to other forms of fooling around during the Big Four period, as compared to present. The large scale organisation of race day trains, and dedicated stations or platforms adjacent to major racecourses bear witness to this. So the names of successful gees would probably have meant something to a larger proportion of the population at the time?

Never mind 'Kickaroo', is it 'Furred Aussie' or 'Fear Doozie' or 'Fired Housy' or some yet further variation?

[2512silverfox]

HNG is reputed to have inspired the racehorse theme being himself a devotee (and a with an early classical education).

[adge]

Never mind 'Kickaroo', is it 'Furred Aussie' or 'Fear Doozie' or 'Fired Housy' or some yet further variation?

Well that has stirred a memory left undisturbed for about fifty years! There was an FA Cup tie between Nottingham Forest and Leeds United, most probably in the 1962/63 season. A group of us schoolboys walked past Midland Station en route to the City Ground and were amazed to see on a special from Leeds an A3 no 60038. A3s by then were extremely rare in Nottingham and unheard of on the Midland line. Noone had clue how to pronounce the name, I think 'Fur-dowsy' was accepted in the end. Can't remember the game at all.

[Graeme Leary]

My late father used to say a day was wasted unless at least one learnt (learned ??) at least one thing and today, with all this discourse has definitely been a big learning day. Thanks for the info (which just might come in handy for Trivial Pursuit).
The Snapper

[Kestrel]

Never mind 'Kickaroo', is it 'Furred Aussie' or 'Fear Doozie' or 'Fired Housy' or some yet further variation?

Well that has stirred a memory left undisturbed for about fifty years! There was an FA Cup tie between Nottingham Forest and Leeds United, most probably in the 1962/63 season. A group of us schoolboys walked past Midland Station en route to the City Ground and were amazed to see on a special from Leeds an A3 no 60038. A3s by then were extremely rare in Nottingham and unheard of on the Midland line. Noone had clue how to pronounce the name, I think 'Fur-dowsy' was accepted in the end. Can't remember the game at all.

Nottingham Forest 3 v Leeds United 0, FA 5th round, Tuesday 19th March 1963
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962%E2%80%9363_FA_Cup

FIRDAUSSI the A3, was indeed no 60038, originally 2503 and then 38. Built in 8/34 it was disposed of in 11/63.
http://www.gotopcs.net/60038.htm

FIRDAUSSI the horse was a St Leger winner (1932) and owned by HH Aga Khan III. It won 8 races out of 21 starts.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/firdaussi

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-l ... e-classics
(the commentator refers to the horse as 'fir-doe-si')

[earlswood nob]

Postby richard » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:42 pm

I've go for the soft S and perhaps a shorter second vowel (Siss-ar-ro) - which is how the Roman geezer is usually pronounced (or is these days eg. on the TV drama "Rome" and I've heard a local classics professor pronounce it this way)

I agree as it was always pronounced that way in my Latin lessons of over fifty years ago.

I cannot see any reason why two languages should be pronounced the same.
I think of Mandarin and Cantonese; they are written/drawn the same, but pronounced differently.

Closer to home, I have great difficulty understanding Geordies when I visit the North-East, and that is the same language.

Earlswood nob

[drmditch]

Closer to home, I have great difficulty understanding Geordies when I visit the North-East, and that is the same language.
Earlswood nob

You think so?
Gan awea man!

I'm not a native, but I've lived in the NE for most of my adult life - and I still get caught out sometimes.
In any case, speech and dialect differs from town to town and especially east to west, but there is a lot of usage which is (I am told) recognisable by Danes.

To get slightly closer to topic, there is a lovely conversation reported in Andrew Everett's book on Vincent Raven. Tom Blades pointed out that part of the problem with over-heated bearings on the rear carrying wheels of the first two NER Pacifics was because they were 'ower near the feer man'.

[STAFFORDA4]

whatever the pronunciation, Siss-er-oh was my rarest** A3 and was only copped after withdrawal (when stored at Bathgate 20/5/64)
Are there any photos of her south of Newcastle in BR days?
Eric.
** rare for us oiks at Darlington