Brick trains

[Cutter]

Hello everyone,

Does anyone know how many of the bogie brick wagons would have been used in a typical train destined for London in the 20s or 30s? I have information about the vehicles and know how many were in the fleet, but not the length of a train. Given that each wagon contained a considerable load I would imagine that trains were short rather than long--but how short or long?
Many thanks.

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all
I think they were normally added to coal trains as a brake tender in ones or twos. As there were so few wagons, it would probably have been difficult to marshal a complete train of brick wagons.
The GCR bogie fish vans were shown in a publicity pic as a complete train, but in fact they ran as odd vans coupled to passenger trains etc.
At 50 tons per wagon, it wouldn't take many to exceed the locomotive's haulage power.

Earlswood nob

[2512silverfox]

Normally added one or two at the head of a mineral train leaving Peterboro UP as additional braking power. Also used for potatoes sometimes in season!

[Bill Bedford]

They were more likely to have been used as a fitted head to trains of unfitted wagon. That is the way that GC bogie coal wagons were used. I doubt if there were more than two or three in a train used this way.

[jwealleans]

There are odd photographs of them in use like that - ISTR there's one in Geoff Goslin's book on LNER freight traffic.

[Cutter]

Thank you all for your prompt and informative replies. The LNER built additional brick wagons, bringing the fleet total to 50. In addition to their use in coal trains there were indeed trains consisting entirely of brick wagons. These generally traveled early in the morning and in the evening.

I have Goslin's book, and it is very informative and even gives timetables for them, but nowhere gives the length of a brick train. He does however offer clues. Loaded brick wagons, he says, were considered the equivalent of four 10 ton mineral wagons, and unloaded brick wagons the equivalent of three. If coal trains ranged between 56 and 100 wagons that suggests 5 to 10 brick wagons. I suppose the actual load would deped on the haulage capacity of the loco.

[Cutter]

Clearly I didn't get an A in Maths--the equivalent for 56-100 wagons would be trains of between 14 and 25 bogie brick wagons.

[DS239]

Also used for potatoes sometimes in season!

Any more information or photo's of them being used for this traffic?

[2512silverfox]

The late Tony Evans (LNER Society) was a VAT inspector and he had a long discussion about this with a client who dealt in the wholesale vegetable market and was also a railway enthusiast. Apparently the empty bogie bricks were used for the Lincolnshire potato trade during season when not in demand for brick traffic. Once again the loaded (and unloaded) vehicles were used to bolster braking at the head of unfitted trains. The period quoted was from the thirties to their eventual transfer to Vauxhall Motors.

[Cutter]

Fascinating. I wonder how the potatoes were loaded--loose or in sacks? The bricks were loaded loose and unloaded manually, which must have been a lot of hard work, to put it mildly. I wonder that the palette wasn't invented much earlier.

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all

I imagine that the potatoes were in sacks for the convenience of unloading.

One of the few local industries was a brick yard and they loaded bricks manually onto flatbed lorries.

It was a great place for trainspotting as it had it's own railway system for sandhoppers, with an approx 1 in 30 connection to the main line. The sight of a S.R. mogul hauling about seven hoppers up the rise banked by the industrial shunter has left lasting memories. I've often thought that it would be a good prototype layout converted into a LNER format.

Earlswood nob

[1H was 2E]

Just found a tangential reference to the method of working of the bogie brick wagons in the book The LNER 2-8-2 and 2-6-2 classes (J.F. Clay and J. Cliffe. With reference to the demise of P1s and very long coal trains; "From 1932 onwards the practice of working shorter but faster coal trains hauled by Cl K3 2-6-0s was found to give good results. These trains consisted of 56 wagons with a 50 ton bogie brick wagon with vacuum brake between the engine and train for additional braking purposes".

This idea has been suggested I know, but this confirms it.

Revenue earning brake tenders, eh.

[53C]

Assuming the potatoes would be in sacks, loaded by hand from trucks, for transit they would have to be protected from the elements. Sheeting would have to be done to ensure the cargo was kept dry. Wet potatoes are no use to anyone.
Also would anyone know if the bed of the wagons was ,as the did with flat lorries, lined with clean straw,?Again to ensure
product was kept in good condition.?

[1H was 2E]

Also would anyone know if the bed of the wagons was ,as the did with flat lorries, lined with clean straw,?Again to ensure
product was kept in good condition.?

In the early 70's there was still heavy "Seed & Ware Potato" traffic from Scotland to the south via the West Coast in Vanfits. The traffic passed in September/October and I recollect that, one year, because of a localised foot & mouth epidemic I had to send out instructions that the straw packing had to be burnt at destination station to prevent spread of the disease, so it was certainly the case then; and it was conveyed in hand balled sacks.

Sadly, the vanfits often developed hot axle boxes on the London LM division - resulting in tick reports, heavy delay and claims - but a 450 mile sustained run, much of it behind a powerful electric loco, when loaded fully, was not what they were used to!

[Hatfield Shed]

...The bricks were loaded loose and unloaded manually, which must have been a lot of hard work, to put it mildly. I wonder that the pallet wasn't invented much earlier.

A brief excursion into the world of logistics introduced me to the notion of integrated handling systems, or rather 'disintegrated' where the pallet or 'skid' from this continent, was not a stable fit on the available fork lift trucks on t'other continent. Joy unbounded.

The slow adoption of mechanical handling aids is largely due to the need to have the right handling gear 'everywhere'. If only present at few locations most of the benefit is lost. While labour was relatively cheap it was difficult to make the case for a machine to do what the mk1 human being could accomplish, in addition to being flexibly deployable onto any other task that came to hand.